Why Religion is More Dangerous Than Handguns

By Daniel Miessler on April 12th, 2009: Tagged as Religion | Security
  • CarlM

    Daniel,

    As I've tried to tell you repeatedly, you have entirely missed my point in making the handgun/religion analogy. I wasn't implying that the two were equally dangerous. (In fact, I believe that handguns are worse for the world than religion, but this is an entirely different argument .. and has NOTHING to do with the point that I was making .. and is NOT the argument I have been making.)

    My purpose was to point out to you an error in your LOGIC. You were using arguments that were equivalent in their logical structure to arguments that you would dismiss from gun-control activists. IF you would dismiss their arguments, then you must recognize that YOUR arguments suffer(ed) from the same weaknesses. THAT was my ONLY point in making the analogy. That's IT.

    As for your current argument, I'll take a closer look tomorrow or Tuesday when I have time, but I'll begin with:

    You are willing to own a handgun (and use it if necessary). That willingness probably comes from fear of or anger at OTHERS who are willing to use handguns.

    Now, if I apply YOUR logic:

    “anything that raises WILLINGNESS is the cause of the most harm”

    I arrive at the conclusion that there is a greater parallel here than you are willing to admit. I believe that you are blinded by your own position on gun ownership and are not letting yourself see the parallels. Anyway, I'll read your post(s) more carefully when I have time and will respond.

  • http://maxolasersquad.com/ Maxolasersquad

    To be clear here, when you say “religion” are you specifically referring to Christianity, Islam, and Judaism? If not, would your arguments hold up against Buddhism or other such religions?
    I think South Park had it right in their Wii episode. Even if atheism became the prominent theism, people would still divide themselves over minutiae and raise arms against each other.
    When I went to FSU I was astonished by how all the different progressive groups (socialists, LGBTSU, etc.) had all this drama between each other and backstabbing over the most retarded hair-splitting issues.

  • cooperati

    I'm wondering how we can see things so differently.

    Ironically, that's one of the points. Individuality.

    If we asked; what statistic can we look at and see who was killed by guns versus religion, obvious harm, actual violence, then we aren't going to find religion to be the method of harm. There will be no statistics supporting religion as a means of committing violence It's actually a meta of method, not being on the same relative plane as guns.

    But, then, if we are allowed to apply metas, then we can look at another higher tier meta, individuality, religious and otherwise.

    So, now that being the case, if we were to accept individuality as a cause of violence, to secure against that threat, we should fear it, shun it, and destroy it as much as possible. This follows a specific type of logic.

    Well, let's backtrack a level and just go on religious differences/religious individualities. The proposition being that religious differences alone should be destroyed is equally logical.

    However, it's inhumane. Because there are Muslims and Christians and Atheists out there who disagree and take up arms for their beliefs is not the best justification for robbing everyone of their individuality or freedom of thought.

    (In fact, I admit I am more than inclined to use weapons to DEFEND those individual rights.)

    “We should all be on the same page” is not identical to “we must all be on the same page.” This is a tenet of freedom.

    Robbing the world of it's religions (all deemed illogical under your propositions) is not so much a priority as robbing the world of starvation, disease, government corruption, child/sex slavery, unethical/illegal/dangerous work conditions, greed, and whatever goes before abolishing everyone's naturally given right to think for themselves.

    Adversely, if you get rid of religion, would it decrease the overall amount of violence being committed? Or would the innate angers and destructive behaviors of extremists find other venues for exporting their destructive products? Only the latter. Humans are only human, until they aren't.

    -=T=-

  • CarlM

    Well put. Other than changing “is not” to “should not be” in the second line of your next-to-last paragraph, I don't have much to add.

    Daniel, take a close look at cooperati's last paragraph. I think it is pretty much dead on (though I do believe that education and increased opportunity WOULD help decrease violence).

  • CarlM

    – Earlier I wrote a lengthy response to this .. and had it disappear when my browser crashed as I was proofreading it (I'm having some computer issues). This is a differently argued (and shorter) response.

    Daniel,

    It's one thing to fine tune your argument to make a better logical case for your conclusions, but you keep entirely changing what you are claiming. It seems that you're attacking the arguments that you THINK I am making, but you're apparently missing my point.

    In a succession of posts (and sometimes in multiple threads within those posts) I have quarreled with the LOGIC you have used and I have tried to use analogous arguments to show you where your LOGIC failed. An analogy I turned to frequently was the suggestion to replace “religion” with “handgun” in your arguments. I did NOT assert that this resulted in identical arguments. You and cooperati are right that handguns and religion are different kinds of “things”. But I do not believe that this is relevant to the point I was making that your LOGIC was flawed. You asserted that certain conclusions followed logically from certain premises. IF they did, then analogous conclusions would follow logically from analogous premises (when “religion” was replaced with “handgun”). Since I knew that you do not agree with the conclusions in the “handgun” case, I was using THAT analogy to show you that something was lacking in your LOGIC. (Only later .. and as an aside .. did I mention [or at least imply] that I believe that handguns are more harmful than religion, and I NEVER tried to give any justification of this belief because it was NEVER my point.)

    In THIS post you say: “He has challenged me to substitute the word “guns” in any argument I make about the danger of religion, as he thinks they are both simply means, and thus interchangeable.” I never said that “they are both simply means” .. I said that the LOGIC doesn't change when you make that substitution. So, if the logical argument fails in ONE case, then it fails in BOTH. (That was my ONLY point.)

    You went on (in this post) to say:
    “So I will try here and now to concisely argue why religion is in fact more dangerous than handguns.”

    Argue away, but though I find much to argue with in your post, this isn't an argument that I have any interest in. The logical follow-up to your conclusion that religion is a root cause of great (potentially civilization-ending) harm in this world is that we should work to eliminate religion. Cooperati put it extremely well, so I will quote him with a TINY [substitution]:

    “Robbing the world of it's religions (all deemed illogical under your propositions) [should not be] so much a priority as robbing the world of starvation, disease, government corruption, child/sex slavery, unethical/illegal/dangerous work conditions, greed, and whatever goes before abolishing everyone's naturally given right to think for themselves.”

  • http://dmiessler.com/ Daniel Miessler

    Ok, so I'm truly not getting what you mean by lack of logic in my argument about religion. Again, the knight's move is that religion gives a CAUSE to do harm, and not just a means. This has always been the basis of my argument, and I don't see logical problems with that, even if I'm making the argument poorly.

    But if I was using weak logic then I apologize, and I shall watch out for that in the future. Honestly, I'm much more interested in the arguments themselves, although I truly do appreciate your showing me where I'm fouling.

    Now, onto the points that Tim made. On a side note, Tim is one of my best friends in the world, from High School, and I enjoy his writing at at a level that rivals my favorites. His argument above was masterfully written. That being said, I don't think it's that strong of an argument.



    1. His first point seems to be that religion is a matter of personal freedom, and that I shouldn't stamp it out. Well, anything someone does is a matter of personal freedom up until the point that it interferes with someone else's right to pursue their own happiness.

    One of my points is that religion's natural tendency is to become more powerful, and therefore more dangerous because of its spreading power and its innate self-defense method of being immune from logical discourse. So limiting religion is only intended to the point that it stops influencing public policy, and therefore others' freedoms. But since this is the natural play for all religion (see modern Islam in Britain, or modern Christianity in our country), I think this is a significant hinderance to what people consider religion to be. And I'm fine with that. The rights of the many being subjugated BY religion are more important than the rights to remove the rights of others.

    Remember, the primary spirit of the constitution is to be free OF religion pushed by other people. So, sure, keep your religion. If I never know about it through your desire to push it through public discourse and influence over public policy, then I absolutely think you should be able to keep ANY view as matter of personal freedom. But that's not how religion manifests itself in the public square; it manifests as a desire to change OTHER PEOPLE's behavior. And this is unlikely to change given the fact that the people are of the mistaken viewpoint that the creator of the universe WANTS the non-believers to change.

    2. The second argument that he makes is that even if religion were not present, the current religious extreemists would find other reasons to be extreme. This is specious. It ignores the fact that this reason to act in particular is potent precisely BECAUSE it comes from god. It compels people to act because it comes from god, and it SPREADS because it comes from god.

    Any other cause that's put forth as a reason to shape public policy, or to do harm to others, will face far more scrutiny because it is, by definition, worldly and therefore clearly more able to be challenged. Only decrees from god (taught by proxy, of course) are strong enough to spread and influence people to this level. As an illustration, you don't find many suicide bombers that don't have a belief in god.

  • http://dmiessler.com/ Daniel Miessler

    > Even if atheism became the prominent theism, people would still divide themselves over minutiae and raise arms against each other.

    For what? People kill each other for religion because they have the support of god in doing so. Atheists, by definition, have no such support.

  • CarlM

    “the primary spirit of the constitution is to be free OF religion pushed by other people”

    I assume you're talking about the First Amendment that states (in part): “Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof” This doesn't say that we ought to be free of religion being pushed by people. It's pretty specific. It says that Congress cannot make a law respecting an establishment of religion. (I just noticed that it doesn't say “a” religion .. so this is stronger than it is usually portrayed .. but still it's a restriction on Congress.) It ALSO says that Congress cannot make a law prohibiting the free exercise of religion.

    “The second argument that he makes is that even if religion were not present, the current religious extreemists would find other reasons to be extreme. This is specious. It ignores the fact that this reason to act in particular is potent precisely BECAUSE it comes from god.”

    Sorry, Daniel, I have to STRONGLY agree with him here. This is a point that both of us were making several posts back. As you are doing here, you asserted in those earlier posts (without proof or even logical argument) that religion is THE reason that the motives to act in a harmful way are so powerful. There is a difference between asserting something (even with a plausible sounding reason) and giving a logical justification for why something IS so.

    The counterexample we gave back in that earlier post was Hitler and the Holocaust. We didn't claim that Hitler was an atheist .. though you responded as if we did. We merely pointed out that his motivation for HIS particular brand of evil did NOT come from God.

    I thought we were pretty clear in those earlier posts, but I'll try again:

    What is your logical proof that the religious extremists (the ones who are capable of pure evil) would not be evil (as was Hitler) even in the absence of their religion?

    Though you accuse us of not understanding the arguments that you have been using or of ignoring key pieces of it, you are ignoring historical fact. Though it is possible that some evil comes from or (more likely) is strengthened by religion, you haven't shown this to be the case. You need to convincingly show that there are evil people who would NOT have been evil without the influence of religion.

    Perhaps I'm not being fair. It might be the case that this is something that is unprovable. Certainly I see no way to design an experiment to detect cause and effect. Without such an experiment .. and with the clear existence of evil that is NOT motivated by God .. you're in a rather difficult position.

    PS I don't mean to put words into Tim's mouth. This argument is mine, but I believe that it represents a reasonable recap/restatement of the arguments we were making in our responses to those earlier posts.

  • http://dmiessler.com/ Daniel Miessler

    > What is your logical proof that the religious extremists (the ones who are capable of pure evil) would not be evil (as was Hitler) even in the absence of their religion?

    Well, as you rightly stated, it's not possible to give true, solid evidence on this point, but I do have a strong substitute. The most obvious illustration of proof that this sort of evil would NOT be committed by the non-religious (as a whole) is that much of the violence that is currently threatening the world's safety is based on religion. I offer a few examples:

    1. 9/11
    2. The religious justification for Jewish incursion into Palestinian territory
    3. Suicide bombers throughout the Middle East

    It is true that the act of taking one's own life does not REQUIRE religion, but it's conspicuously more true that this behavior comes from those that DO believe, and it is precisely this willingness that is most likely to accompany the use of weapons of true destruction, such as those of a nuclear, biological, and chemical nature.

  • CarlM

    “It is true that the act of taking one's own life does not REQUIRE religion, but it's conspicuously more true that this behavior comes from those that DO believe.”

    That is a perfect example of what I've been talking about. You're making an assertion here. You probably believe that it is true, but I seriously doubt that it is. In 2004 there were 32,439 suicides in the US. (That was 10.9 suicides per 100,000 people.) It is certainly NOT “conspicuously” more true that this behavior comes from those who DO believe. I'm assuming that you're asserting that the proportion of suicides is higher among believers than among non-believers [evidence?] or that most suicides are motivated by religion [evidence?].

    I think that you've simply made a false assertion [perhaps without realizing it] in an effort to bolster your argument. When you do things like this that you are actually giving evidence of the weakness of your argument.

  • http://maxolasersquad.com/ Maxolasersquad

    We have are pack animals. We congeal around things like flags, dialects, cultures, etc. Religion is just one thing to congeal and build a wall of xenophobia around.
    On NPR, shortly after the invasion of Iraq, there was an interview with some soldier who where talking about how they where going to bring their culture to the Iraqi people. They where going to teach men to not hold hands as they walked down the streets and reform all sorts of habits into the American way.
    Look at the white Christians who burned black churches in south so many years ago.
    Division over xenophobia is part of human condition. As an animal we are lucky that we are smart enough that we can willfully talk ourselves out of such nonsense, but that effort must be intentional.
    To believe that religion is our only catalyst to xenophobia, and in turn violence against each other, defies common observation.

  • http://dmiessler.com/ Daniel Miessler

    > In 2004 there were 32,439 suicides in the US. (That was 10.9 suicides per 100,000 people.) It is certainly NOT “conspicuously” more true that this behavior comes from those who DO believe.

    Nice stat, but you missed the point. How many of those suicides were carried out as part of an act of murder? Now control for religious belief and see what the numbers tell you.

  • CarlM

    “It is true that the act of taking one's own life does not REQUIRE religion, but it's conspicuously more true that this behavior comes from those that DO believe.”

    That is a perfect example of what I've been talking about. You're making an assertion here. You probably believe that it is true, but I seriously doubt that it is. In 2004 there were 32,439 suicides in the US. (That was 10.9 suicides per 100,000 people.) It is certainly NOT “conspicuously” more true that this behavior comes from those who DO believe. I'm assuming that you're asserting that the proportion of suicides is higher among believers than among non-believers [evidence?] or that most suicides are motivated by religion [evidence?].

    I think that you've simply made a false assertion [perhaps without realizing it] in an effort to bolster your argument. When you do things like this that you are actually giving evidence of the weakness of your argument.

  • http://maxolasersquad.com/ Maxolasersquad

    We have are pack animals. We congeal around things like flags, dialects, cultures, etc. Religion is just one thing to congeal and build a wall of xenophobia around.
    On NPR, shortly after the invasion of Iraq, there was an interview with some soldier who where talking about how they where going to bring their culture to the Iraqi people. They where going to teach men to not hold hands as they walked down the streets and reform all sorts of habits into the American way.
    Look at the white Christians who burned black churches in south so many years ago.
    Division over xenophobia is part of human condition. As an animal we are lucky that we are smart enough that we can willfully talk ourselves out of such nonsense, but that effort must be intentional.
    To believe that religion is our only catalyst to xenophobia, and in turn violence against each other, defies common observation.

  • http://dmiessler.com/ Daniel Miessler

    > In 2004 there were 32,439 suicides in the US. (That was 10.9 suicides per 100,000 people.) It is certainly NOT “conspicuously” more true that this behavior comes from those who DO believe.

    Nice stat, but you missed the point. How many of those suicides were carried out as part of an act of murder? Now control for religious belief and see what the numbers tell you.


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