What Are Atheists So Upset About?

By Daniel Miessler on April 14th, 2009: Tagged as Atheism | Religion

atheism

I’m often asked by my smart friends:

Ok, we get it…religion can be bad. But why bring it up and talk about it all the time? Why not just let it go? Why not just let them do their thing and go about your business?

The answer is simple: religion’s business is to get into my business. When someone deeply believes that non-believers are offending god himself, it’s quite natural to try and change their behavior–often by any means necessary. This isn’t just extremism, it’s belief brought to its natural conclusion without the brakes of reason applied. And we, in this society, are unfortunately low on brake pads.

Remember, only a very small portion of the Hitler’s followers actually killed anyone. Supporting harmful belief systems enables the extremists within the group to take action, and without that silent, passive backing the extremist minority would crumble under public scrutiny.

So while I only actively condemn extremists, I am forced to acknowledge that the immunity from logical analysis of belief that protects moderate believers also protects, in the exact same way, those with extremist views. Quite simply, it is moderate religion that enables extremist religion.

Here are a few videos to provide additional stimulation on the matter:

  • CarlM

    “Ok, we get it…religion can be bad. But why bring it up and talk about it all the time? Why not just let it go? Why not just let them do their thing and go about your business?” Come on, Daniel. Nobody has said this. You're doing the straw-man thing again.

  • http://dmiessler.com/ Daniel Miessler

    This is not straw man. Straw man requires that nobody is making this argument, and that I am pretending they are so I can win an easy victory.

    But I get this constantly, i.e. multiple times per day, when I post atheism-related content. Maybe not from you, but from many people. So, no, it's not a straw man.

  • CarlM

    OK .. to be clear .. I have not seen that in the responses here on your blog. I can't speak for your offline interactions. Still, I'm a little skeptical that ANYONE is saying “let the dangerous people go ahead and do their thing” and this is what your post implies you are hearing. The issue is that YOU see danger where many of us do not.

    “So while I only actively condemn extremists..” This just doesn't seem to be true. If you don't want the others to freely practice their religion, then you condemn them.

  • http://dmiessler.com/ Daniel Miessler

    > The issue is that YOU see danger where many of us do not.

    I don't understand how you keep misinterpreting my points.

    The ENTIRE point of this thread is that I see danger from religion. So I show WHY I see danger, and you accuse me of attacking a straw man.

    Let me try and make a claim again, to be clear:

    1. Religion promotes a lack of logical thinking about issues since the source of truth is other-worldly.
    2. This naturally translates, in many visible areas, to an attempt to influence PUBLIC policy toward those views, and therefore also the behavior of non-believers and those who believe differently from them.
    3. It is worth having a conversation about the merits of building a society based on logic and reason (secular humanism) vs. based on the unfounded superstitions of one group or another. Hence my constant raising of this issue.

    So yes, religion-as shown in the videos above-is a harmful influence. That's my claim. That's indicated clearly in the title of this post. This is NOT a straw man, as indicated very clearly by the fact that you're asking me to defend this exact position.

  • CarlM

    Daniel, I don't think I'm misinterpreting anything. I'm accusing YOU of misinterpreting the position of others.

    You wrote: “Ok, we get it…religion can be bad. But why bring it up and talk about it all the time? Why not just let it go? Why not just let them do their thing and go about your business?”

    When these smart friends of yours say something like this, they are NOT agreeing that religion IS bad .. and are NOT saying that the religious BADDIES should be permitted to do their thing. They are disagreeing with your assertion that RELIGION is bad and are separating the BADDIES from religion as a whole. They're saying that you should let the non-BADDIES do their thing.

    Each of us probably draws the line at a different place. I assume that we all consider religious terrorists to be bad. Many of us consider those who are pushing to have the teaching of evolution removed from public schools or to have “alternatives” taught in science classes to be BADDIES (I fall in this camp). YOU draw the line in a different place. It's entirely your right to do so.

    Your pointing out what you see as the danger in religion is NOT the straw man argument I was pointing at. Your implication that someone would say something approaching “Yes, religion is bad, but get over it .. let them be” is what I was taking issue with. Someone who would say that is an easy target, but I've not seen anyone saying that. THIS was my straw man point.

    I had a second point in my last reply (which I'll quote here):

    “So while I only actively condemn extremists..” This just doesn't seem to be true. If you don't want the others to freely practice their religion, then you condemn them.

    My point here is that you should be honest with yourself. Are you drawing a line between active condemnation and passive condemnation? If not, I think that you're not being completely honest here. If you condemn religion, then be honest about this. Don't pretend to only condemn extremists.

  • http://dmiessler.com/ Daniel Miessler

    I agree with your last point; that was a sloppy statement. I am in fact criticizing religion in general, to some degree, because I think it supports and allows the incubation of, extremist religion.

    My poorly stated point was that I'm NOT on a mission to seek out people who don't look to change my behavior based on God's will, and to tell them they should change. My focus is on the extreme and negative manifestations of the problem, and I only address the beliefs of logical moderates in the most abstract way.

  • http://dmiessler.com/ Daniel Miessler

    > The issue is that YOU see danger where many of us do not.

    I don't understand how you keep misinterpreting my points.

    The ENTIRE point of this thread is that I see danger from religion. So I show WHY I see danger, and you accuse me of attacking a straw man.

    Let me try and make a claim again, to be clear:

    1. Religion promotes a lack of logical thinking about issues since the source of truth is other-worldly.
    2. This naturally translates, in many visible areas, to an attempt to influence PUBLIC policy toward those views, and therefore also the behavior of non-believers and those who believe differently from them.
    3. It is worth having a conversation about the merits of building a society based on logic and reason (secular humanism) vs. based on the unfounded superstitions of one group or another. Hence my constant raising of this issue.

    So yes, religion-as shown in the videos above-is a harmful influence. That's my claim. That's indicated clearly in the title of this post. This is NOT a straw man, as indicated very clearly by the fact that you're asking me to defend this exact position.

  • CarlM

    Daniel, I don't think I'm misinterpreting anything. I'm accusing YOU of misinterpreting the position of others.

    You wrote: “Ok, we get it…religion can be bad. But why bring it up and talk about it all the time? Why not just let it go? Why not just let them do their thing and go about your business?”

    When these smart friends of yours say something like this, they are NOT agreeing that religion IS bad .. and are NOT saying that the religious BADDIES should be permitted to do their thing. They are disagreeing with your assertion that RELIGION is bad and are separating the BADDIES from religion as a whole. They're saying that you should let the non-BADDIES do their thing.

    Each of us probably draws the line at a different place. I assume that we all consider religious terrorists to be bad. Many of us consider those who are pushing to have the teaching of evolution removed from public schools or to have “alternatives” taught in science classes to be BADDIES (I fall in this camp). YOU draw the line in a different place. It's entirely your right to do so.

    Your pointing out what you see as the danger in religion is NOT the straw man argument I was pointing at. Your implication that someone would say something approaching “Yes, religion is bad, but get over it .. let them be” is what I was taking issue with. Someone who would say that is an easy target, but I've not seen anyone saying that. THIS was my straw man point.

    I had a second point in my last reply (which I'll quote here):

    “So while I only actively condemn extremists..” This just doesn't seem to be true. If you don't want the others to freely practice their religion, then you condemn them.

    My point here is that you should be honest with yourself. Are you drawing a line between active condemnation and passive condemnation? If not, I think that you're not being completely honest here. If you condemn religion, then be honest about this. Don't pretend to only condemn extremists.

  • http://dmiessler.com/ Daniel Miessler

    I agree with your last point; that was a sloppy statement. I am in fact criticizing religion in general, to some degree, because I think it supports and allows the incubation of, extremist religion.

    My poorly stated point was that I'm NOT on a mission to seek out people who don't look to change my behavior based on God's will, and to tell them they should change. My focus is on the extreme and negative manifestations of the problem, and I only address the beliefs of logical moderates in the most abstract way.


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