Comments on: Immortality is Achievable

By: Ben Abba

Ben Abba — Sat, 04 Apr 2009 11:04:59 +0000

If you want to learn how to become immortal from a 2,800 year old man, check out my research at my main blog: http://www.BenAbba.com, or my podcasts at http://Achieving-Immortality.com.

If you really me to cut to the chase here, all of the people I have found, who are still alive today and are older than 1,000 years; they all have a strong belief in a creator. Something about have such a belief protects them all from becoming road-kill.

Be Well, Live Long, and Prosperous!

By: Ben Abba

Ben Abba — Sat, 04 Apr 2009 07:04:59 +0000

By: lowfake

lowfake — Sat, 04 Apr 2009 01:55:18 +0000

I had the exact same idea

By: CarlM

CarlM — Sat, 04 Apr 2009 01:04:12 +0000

Let me add something. Egan wrote a short story set in the same universe as “Incandescence.” The story is called “Riding the Crocodile” and it is available FREE on the author's web page. It discusses death in a world of immortality. It's a good read.

By: CarlM

CarlM — Sat, 04 Apr 2009 00:59:01 +0000

We achieve immortality by what we leave behind. This may be our DNA in the form of children. It may be our words in the form of writings that survive the ages. It may be simply that we have done our part to improve the world in some small way.

Of course it is also true that the same sort of immortality is achieved by those who harm the world in some small (or large) way.

Immortality is an interesting thought experiment, but if you carry that thought to its conclusion, it isn't clear that immortality is all it's cracked up to be. This has been explored (quite well) by many science fiction authors. One of my favorite authors in recent years has been Greg Egan. He explores some of the ideas we're talking about here (immortality and brain transfer) in his most recent novel "Incandescence." One of his earlier novels ("Permutation City") just about convinced me that computer based AI was impossible. Interestingly, I don't think that this was his intention. Prior to reading the book, I had always taken for granted that a computer based AI (human simulation or other) would eventually happen .. though not in the near future. I won't spoil the book, but it made me give this some serious rethinking.

Anyone interested in mathematics, computer science, and physics would love this guy's books, but he also appeals to those who want to carry on novel-length thought experiments about possible futures.

By: CarlM

CarlM — Sat, 04 Apr 2009 00:48:28 +0000

This doesn't solve the problem that the brain ages (and suffers diseases of aging … and dies) too.

By: CarlM

CarlM — Sat, 04 Apr 2009 00:45:33 +0000

I agree entirely about the ruptured cells (something that people seem to be willfully ignorant of). It's possible that we'll be able to overcome that difficulty with some sort of antifreeze solution, but for now .. all those frozen bodies and/or heads are dead.

I think you're being WAY too optimistic about the possibility of mapping those frozen brains. There are incredibly complex connections among the neurons of the brain and we can't expect all of those connections (or the relative strengths of those connections) to survive the freezing process.

By: DeRien

DeRien — Fri, 03 Apr 2009 18:30:06 +0000

You should read Kurtzweil's book “Singularity”.

By: Cenobite

Cenobite — Fri, 03 Apr 2009 18:26:47 +0000

An interesting piece! Well done.

But...is it really necessary to transfer the information from one brain into another? Given the error rate of simply transferring a huge number of files from one computer drive into another, I don't see this being feasible.

I have a shorter and more elegant solution. Why not simply:

1.) grow a clone of your own body (using your own cells)
2.) transplant the brain into the new body?

By: a

Fri, 03 Apr 2009 17:53:24 +0000

This rules.

By: cooperati

cooperati — Fri, 03 Apr 2009 17:10:27 +0000

I've had many thoughts along this line, and come to the realization that the first probable option would be having some form of "brain preservation", which would be the most likely organ to preserve. (Though, perhaps some portion of the spine might be necessary for full consciousness retention.)

Then sensory adaptation to either an android body or genetically debrained clone would be done either by remote transmission or by encasing the old brain into a cavity in the new body.

At some point, this will be the mode of research with the greatest amount of success.

Also, at some point, bodysnatching will be a problem with this research. Once brain preservation can be achieved, then, not too unlike vampires or zombies, a new race of people dependent on fresh young bodies will be born.

Another form that will be researched is the revival of cryogenically frozen brains. I do not believe any of these brains will have survived the instant freezing process, since every cell with water in it will have to have ruptured from the extreme cold. But, they can use this head as a type of "crystal map", from which they can simulate by computer the pathways of the original brain, in various combinations of complexities for each neuron, synapse, axon and dendrite until they have a conscious person revived in computer form. (Sort of like taking the genetic material from a person and cloning it. You've revived the pattern, but not the original person. It's this very problem that I will never use a Star Trek style transporter on principle alone.)

Unfortunately, even a future run by atheists will be guided by their human passions and, therefore, bigotries. No human of any devising will live longer than a few hundred years, a thousand at most, by sheer circumstance of the inevitable instability of both civilization and environments, natural and unnatural. However, this might be long enough to make a lasting impression on current forms of humanity and it's divergent inheritors.

-=T=-

By: slfnflctd

slfnflctd — Fri, 03 Apr 2009 17:08:40 +0000

My favorite hypothetical scenario is an implant like you describe (or an external accessory) that somehow interfaces enough with your biological brain so that transfer of consciousness to digital form is gradual & seamless. I suspect it's rather unlikely, but one can hope.

By: slfnflctd

slfnflctd — Fri, 03 Apr 2009 17:02:59 +0000

I think the 'digital upload' of a 'mind' is the only realistic near-term scenario. We've been preserving small fragments of people's minds for thousands of years now, and the I.T. revolution continues to astonishingly increase our ability to do this-- many, many exponential degrees over.

I don't think physical immortality is a sustainable, possible or good idea right now (or for the forseeable future), either - not without routine interplanetary travel and something resembling terraforming - but there's no reason why we can't store more & more of our thoughts digitally, or even conceivably develop some form of AI that ties them together and gives them an unprecedented ability to continue interacting on their own in a lifelike manner. 'Actual' AI that is self-aware could even develop out of this, in a more far-fetched scenario.

People will protest about creating 'software zombies', I am quite sure, but I can't imagine how this can possibly be stopped. Some form of it has probably already begun.

By: lowfake

lowfake — Fri, 03 Apr 2009 16:41:26 +0000

Perhaps we will be able to download our Id or Ego or whatever makes us who we are within 50 years and maybe we won't. But I what I would expect to happen before that advance in technology is an artificial implant for the brain much like artificial hearts and artificial limbs. Perhaps you won't have to worry about the downloading tech becoming available in the current common lifespan if our lifespans can be slightly extended until the tech is available for electronic immortality.

By: Michael Blume

Michael Blume — Fri, 03 Apr 2009 16:03:03 +0000

Might want to sign up for Cryonics, just to make sure you make it to this point. I know it sounds expensive, but you can set up a life insurance plan to pay for it — if you're young, it costs about as much as a cell phone plan right now.

By: William

William — Fri, 03 Apr 2009 15:58:32 +0000

You doing this simply for the reason of 'not dying' will be insufficient. You need a positive reason to live. Playing a game to 'not lose' is not fun. You'll run out of life. Have you seen "the Dark Crystal"?

By: LMK

LMK — Fri, 03 Apr 2009 15:51:30 +0000

This is neat, but it's more along the lines ensuring that your memories always exist in some form, rather than immortality.

Transferring my memories to a new body isn't giving me immortality, it's transferring my memories to a new body. Not transferring my consciousness to the new body means that there will just be a doppelganger with my memories - I'll still be in my 65 year old body.

By: Daniel Miessler

Daniel Miessler — Fri, 03 Apr 2009 14:37:53 +0000

I've read it. Great stuff. Thanks for the comment, though.

By: Daniel Miessler

Daniel Miessler — Fri, 03 Apr 2009 14:37:36 +0000

Well, crap. Between you and Carl (both of which are PhDs, I'm feeling slightly less optimistic.

:(

I'm holding out for the singularity to help us then. :)

By: Dr Mabuse

Dr Mabuse — Fri, 03 Apr 2009 14:26:08 +0000

We have no idea how the brain works. How memories are encoded in neurons is completely opaque, let alone the nature of consciousness itself and how it functions. We have a few clues on certain physiological mapping to brain function, but it's mostly a black box. Information goes in - processing goes on - information comes out. We don't know much at all about that processing.

It will be far longer than two or three decades before a human neural interface or memory transfer system can be built, because we lack the understanding of the structure of even simple animal brains, and cannot reproduce them. We lack both ends of the required system, and no coherent theoretical approach to the problem. Neurobiology is indeed making leaps and bounds, but it is nowhere near the goal you suggest.

Perhaps a neurobiological Leonardo da Vinci or Einstein of AI will emerge and leap the gulf of knowledge with some brilliant work of genius, but lacking that, we will be plodding away gradually mapping the human mind on one hand and trying to build a true AI with the other for a long time to come.

The likelihood is, we won't see mind uploading in our lifetimes.