Ignorant People Don’t Realize Their Environment Built Them

I definitely think you adopt a belief system based upon what you grow up with and what you are surrounded by.

However, does that mean anything? Just because most people in Israel practice Judaism does that mean they are automatically wrong or right? The same goes for people in the South, or Bay Area or wherever. One would hope that as a person gets older they can begin to develop their own ideology and belief system. Will there be those who never change their belief system as they grow up? Will there be those who refuse to search out other alternatives to their own beliefs? Absolutely, but does it necessarily make them wrong? Just because some has adopted the same belief system as the region in which they live doesn’t make them close minded or ignorant. I know that’s not what you said, I was just adding that.

Just as I have grown up in the South, I am a very conservative Christian and I believe my beliefs and values are “correct.” But I know there are also others who grew up in Saudi Arabia and believe Islam is correct.

Bottom line – I agree that people’s core world view and initial belief systems are products of their environment and upbringing, but is not necessarily a bad thing.

My only point is that if your adult beliefs match very closely those that you were given by your parents, and your environment, then you should be VERY cautious. This is because accepting this means that you just happened to be born in the right place.

Jonathon is correct that truth is not determined by geography. I think what is is saying is this:

Would you tell an atheist to be VERY cautious if they grew up in an atheistic neighborhood with atheist parents and still lived in that neighborhood and was still an atheist? Would you consider them ignorant and close-minded? I understand your point that you should investigate your beliefs and make sure they are based on something other than what your parents told you. But I HAVE spent a LOT of time investigating Christianity. Yes, it is a core belief because it is what I grew up with. But it is also a core belief because I have not found evidence enough to convince me otherwise.

My only point is that you should feel extremely lucky that out of all the religions that have existed throughout history, and of all those that still exist today, you happened to be born in place that taught you the RIGHT one.

And it’s not the same for atheists, by the way. Someone without a hobby doesn’t have the same hobby as someone who also doesn’t have one — they both just don’t have one.

But yes, I would challenge anyone who has the exact same beliefs that their environment gave them — even if they were raised as an atheist. The point is to take notice if you still have the same beliefs. They’re not necessarily wrong, but the odds of them being correct are simply dismal in a world with so many widely opposing views.

I’m just saying we should be aware of this.

Can this explain the Ron Paultards? :-)

Hey, I’m one of them…

“And it’s not the same for atheists, by the way. Someone without a hobby doesn’t have the same hobby as someone who also doesn’t have one — they both just don’t have one.”

OK, I know this might launch some other debate, but not having a hobby is NOT the same as not believing in a creator. That is way too simplified, especially when so many atheists espouse their beliefs in such a public manner. People without hobbies don’t create blogs that say they don’t have a hobby and people should drop the hobbies they have because all the “facts” show that the hobby they have actually doesn’t exist, when all the time the stamps are sitting right in front of them (there very well might be some blog out there like that – you never know in today’s world – but it SEEMS ludicrous).

Atheism is a belief system, not an absence of belief.

@Michael

If everyone believed in invisible pink unicorns and drove around with “I LOVE INVISIBLE PINK UNICORNS” on their cars, and talked about it constantly in public, and built large buildings in which to meet with others who shared the same love…

…but you DIDN’T believe in pink unicorns…

You wouldn’t have a NON belief in pink unicorns. You just don’t have one.

Are you a NON pagan? Are you a NON Hindu? No, you’re just not a pagan and not a hindu. It’s the same with Christianity for me. The default is to NOT believe in something, not to believe in it — just like all the other beliefs out there.

When you understand why you don’t believe in the thousands of other Gods that have existed throughout history, you’ll understand why I don’t believe in yours.

@ Daniel,

This is one of those “agree to disagree” points that atheists and Christians always have. You believe the default is not to believe, while I believe the default is to believe. I think it makes sense that there is a creator. You think it makes sense for there not to be a creator. I look at the earth and all of creation and cannot fathom that this is a matter of chance and happenstance. You look at the earth and the universe and say, “Wow, all of this just happeneded with no external influence.” Your view befuddles me. Mine befuddles you. Just two different ways of thinking.

But you are still making a mistake. Some people believe in a different god or gods than I do, as you point out. The reason I do not believe in the other gods is because my studies have led me to believe that Jesus has a real truth claim (yes, I was raised Christian, but I have strived to reason out why I believe as well). But regardless, they still do believe in the divine. They and I have that in common. Even the people who worship a pink unicorn (which is getting really old BTW – can you guys come up with another colorful mythical figure please). You and your fellow atheists do not believe in anything divine AT ALL. Which means you BELIEVE there is no creator or creators. Atheist means “non-theist”. It is a belief. The argument that atheism is not a belief system is another one of those befuddling things for me.

First, I didn’t say anything about there being no external influence. But it’s a leap to give that influence a sentience, a personality, and talk about what it thinks and wants and loves and hates, and what it did when.

…all based on a book written by men, just like a million other books written by men about other such Gods that you don’t believe in.

Second, if someone doesn’t have enough information about what happened pre big bang, which nobody does, and refuses to come to any conclusions about it, that’s not strange behavior. It’s logical and humble.

I’m saying I don’t have any idea what caused the big bang, and you’re calling that crazy. I say it’s 1000 times as crazy to sit on a speck of dust in a vast universe and tell me that you KNOW not only who created the universe, but also what they think, what they like, don’t like, etc.

Think about it for a second. Seriously.

So again, my stance is that your answer is not correct, and your answer is ASTOUNDINGLY SPECIFIC and personalized.

So if someone says I believe that there is a person in Guam right now standing on a couch, touching their nose, holding a newspaper, wearing a yellow shirt, with their shoes untied, who served in vietnam, and got married on a Friday…

If I tell you that I don’t believe that, then do I have a BELIEF? No. A belief, in this context, is an active thing. It’s something you branch out on based on something. YOU are the one branching out here, not me. I’m simply NOT believing in your claim about this person in Guam.

It is YOUR responsibility to show EVERYONE ELSE why YOU believe this person is standing on a couch in Guam doing all these things. Why? Because it’s both SPECIFIC and UNLIKELY.

So don’t call me a non-couch-stander-believer-person. It makes no sense. I’m also a non-frogs-flier-believer and a non-moon-cheese-believer. But we don’t assign ourselves those labels because that would be silly.

Assigning a label to someone who doesn’t believe in ONE SPECIFIC GOD out of all the thousands that have been created over time is just as silly.

And please don’t come with, “But mine is SPECIAL!” Of course yours is special (wink wink). Do you think that’s a unique response? Everyone thinks THEIR god is the right one. Except for atheists and agnostics. We don’t think ours is right because we’re not pretentious enough to claim we have that kind of information.

Emile Durkheim – (sociologist from the 19th century) – “people are a product of their social environment” – that behavior cannot be understood fully in terms of individual biological and phsycological traits. – durkheim is agnostic.

Not everyone born and raised in the American South shares all of his views, I'm sure, and not everyone born and raised in the Bay Area share yours. He might be a close minded douchebag without the capacity to question his upbringing; but making sweeping generalizations about people who share a geographical location is just as close minded.

You might as well say all black people like watermelon because all black people like watermelon; which would be a retarded thing to say on several levels.

Not everyone born and raised in the American South shares all of his views, I'm sure, and not everyone born and raised in the Bay Area share yours. He might be a close minded douchebag without the capacity to question his upbringing; but making sweeping generalizations about people who share a geographical location is just as close minded.

You might as well say all black people like watermelon because all black people like watermelon; which would be a retarded thing to say on several levels.