If The Problem Were Simply Sub-Standard American Schools, Asian and Indian Kids Would Be Doing Poorly As Well

By Daniel Miessler on February 11th, 2009: Tagged as Culture | Education

academic_performance

Liberals love to blame poor Black and Hispanic performance in American public schools on the lack of school quality, e.g. lack of updated textbooks, no laptops for kids, etc. This has been the standard liberal narrative for decades (I’m an SF liberal myself, btw). But does this assessment match the data? Does it match what students and teachers see every day in American schools? Does it match what we see in society?

No. If either of the following statements were true, Asian and Indian kids would be performing poorly in American public schools as well:

American public schooling is simply poor altogether, and it’s impossible to do well
American public school is biased against non-whites, which is why blacks and hispanics do so poorly

But Asian and Indian kids are academically dominating. These students aren’t just outperforming Blacks and Hispanics in the same exact schools, they’re also outperforming White students. Why is that? How are Asians and Indians doing so well in an academic environment that’s supposedly hard to thrive in?

The answer is culture. Some cultures are conducive to academic performance, and others are not. Quite simply, the problem isn’t poor schools, the problem is poor parenting.

One fallback defense against this is often that of socio-economic status, e.g. “Well, this is simply because these high-performing Asians come from rich families, and the Hispanic kids are poor…” But this doesn’t stand up under scrutiny. Here’s a clip from an article in the L.A. Times on this very subject, titled “Trying to Bridge the Grade Divide”.

To begin with, the eight students agreed on a few generalities: Latino and Asian students came mostly from poor and working-class families.

According to a study of census data, 84% of the Asian and Latino families in the neighborhoods around Lincoln High have median annual household incomes below $50,000. And yet the Science Bowl team is 90% Asian, as is the Academic Decathlon team.

I find it highly ironic that liberals claim to be the ones interested in protecting minorities, yet they are the ones championing this horribly destructive narrative of “bias against non-whites” in the academic environment. Most Indians are pretty dark, and yet they graduate high school, attain bachelors degrees, and graduate degrees at higher rates than Blacks, Hispanics, and Whites.

And no, it’s not time to start looking for a pro-Asian or pro-Indian bias. We need to stop looking for ways to avoid unpleasant truths. Some cultures excel at raising children who succeed, and some cultures do not. The longer we choose to avert our eyes from this painful fact, the more harm we do in the name of equality. This simply has to stop. ::

Links

[ Most Students in Big Cities Lag Badly in Basic Science | nytimes.com ]
[ In Elite N.Y. Schools, a Dip in Blacks and Hispanics | nytimes.com ]
[ Socioeconomic Statistics and Demographics | www.asian-nation.org ]
[ Rich, Black, and Flunking | Eastbayexpress ]
[ The Education Gap | NYTimes ]

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http://maxolasersquad.com/ Maxolasersquad

There are a lot of problems with our public schools that do include funding and sometimes includes racial bias. I think you correctly point out that one of the major problems is parenting. I've mentioned before that my wife is a teacher. From the stories she tells working with ESE kids, the story is too often no father or father not involved, mother doesn't care either or works two jobs and doesn't have the time, no discipline at home or parents backing up teachers.
Many parents will even explicitly tell her that discipline is the school's job, not the parents. If a child has no boundaries at home and does not hear “No”, then what else can you expect from the child when they enter school and all of these foreign and restrictive concepts are in place?
It also doesn't help when a child goes through school feeling disenfranchised, has children later on, and sees their child having the same struggles through school. These parents often feel bad for their child, knowing what they are going through, and grow that animosity in their child.
On the flip side we have effective methods for helping these children feel like school is a place where they can belong, achieve, and do something with themselves, but we simply fail to implement these plans because they are either too expensive in the short run (even though they represent a net savings), they are not politically expedient to those in power, or those in charge do not take their job seriously enough to make sure they are putting in place the proper procedures for our children.
http://hubpages.com/hub/Mobile-Phone-Ringtones Mobile Phone Ringtones

A lot depends on how one thinks and brought up. Indians give so much importance to the studies. Anything else comes only after the education. For example check their performance in Olympics. You see no Olympic champion from India for a long long time. It clearly shows their first choice. ie studies.
Unapologietic Liberal

I think you misstate the views of most intelligent liberals. I think we all acknowledge the differences in academic performance due to cultural background. But what we liberals believe is that it is the responsibility of schools to do their best to compensate for these differences and give those who do not have the advantages at home, whether cultural or economic, the best chance possible to excel academically, too. What gets our blood boiling is when someone says, “it's all due to differences in culture, so there's not much you can do anyway”.
zoe

You've managed to cleverly sidestep the issue of discrimination against blacks and Latinos by saying “nonwhites”. Perhaps you're right, perhaps there isn't an overall bias against anyone who isn't white. But what if it's targeted specifically against blacks and Latinos?

I'm not saying this is necessarily true, but the way you've phrased your argument doesn't address the question.

You have also ignored the other factors which might influence the relative success of Asians & Indians–sample error. The families who succeed in the arduous process of immigrating to a whole new continent are probably more likely to have their act together than the majority of people in their home countries. They also might have more seed money to buy homes in better school districts, as opposed to the ghetto.

If you want to make the point you're trying to make (which may be completely valid), you have to compare apples to apples. That is, comparing across cultures and ethnic groups, separating by socioeconomic status.
Jim Wang

You're missing the most important point of all.

Most Asians and Indians come over based on performanced based visas. My father came here because my mom has a college degree and he was enrolled at graduate school in Cornell.

Most of my friends have similar backgrounds – they come here for graduate school, or to be doctors, lawyers, and engineers.

With family backgrounds like that, no wonder we succeed. If you want to look for academically underperforming children, all you have to do is look in SF Chinatown. There are 5th generation immigratns who still can't speak English.
Foo

Regardless of possible actual cultural bias, holy cow, that was a retarded article.

You can't think of any possible reason how school quality might be correlated with the race of the student? Here's a hint: very few Indian students live in South Side Chicago.
V

I think you're overlooking the self selective nature of recent Asian and Indian immigration trends. Speaking from more of the Chinese perspective, since the communist government opened it's borders, only the absolute smartest and richest Chinese were able to immigrate to this country. Before this time, the cultural revolution almost completely shut down academia. This certainly created downward pressure on the general level of education, but it also created a crop of incredibly bright and motivated students, from a much larger demographic (anybody college aged during the entire cultural revolution who could not go to school) to fill a limited number of spots at the newly opened Chinese universities. Now of these students (who already overcame extremely low acceptance rates), the ones that were able to obtain acceptance and scholarships to American graduate schools was even more elite. Now, while first acknowledging that this is not the only immigration pattern for Chinese-americans, comparing the children of this intellectual class to other immigrant groups neglects their history. Even comparing these academic achievements to the offspring of early railroad workers from Hong Kong, I bet you would find a discrepancy.

This is not to say that I disagree that the problem with the American education system is not just the schools, but the learning environment (including parenting, role models, media, advertising). The problem is, the only real way to reverse these trends is through better education and more funding – hence my reluctant support for the teacher's union.
Dana

I couldn't agree more. I taught English in the California public school system several years back, and to say that I was swimming upstream would be an understatement. If parents are going to be MIA and expect teachers to not only teach but instill values, ethics and morals, our Country will be void of any quality citizens within the next 10 years.
icepyro

I would just like to chime in and state that I do agree that a major issue is parenting in this situation. I also would point out that most liberals are championing the narrative of bias against blacks and hispanics. I haven't really seen “Oh please help this poor Asian kid” unless the kid is in an oppressive part of Asia. And as for the liberal who spoke, I feel there is a severe lack of culture in America in general when it comes to academia. Never did I see culture used as an excuse not to do something about it. There -is- something that can be done about it. Parenting can do something about culture. They can do something about the values. If parents teach their kids to value education this could go better. But I feel it is not like this. Watch the movie 'Traffic' sometime. If the person who works themselves to being in charge of fighting the war on drugs cannot see, help, or prevent their own kid from getting mixed up in drugs, then we are fighting the problem from the wrong direction. No kid is going to listen to a teacher they don't respect and they will not respect the teacher based on principle without already being taught said principle by someone more influential in their lives: parents.
Now I do agree that schools need more funding. If kids had access to the things at school that they need to succeed in life, things could be different too. The main issue I see however is time. If the teacher had better control over the students, they could be taught more and faster, but that won't happen without the kids respecting the teachers (see above). Of course, allowing a child to fail if he/she doesn't succeed would probably help keep motivation up as well. At least it would be a more accurate view of motivation/achievement than if you pass you succeed and if you do nothing you still move forward.
Johanna

I'm sorry this is such a long response, but I sense in your post that you want answers, so here is my effort to help you.

1. Comparing ethnic groups to each other is not apples to apples- just because the four ethnic groups you mentioned: Black, Latino, Asian, and Indian are non-white populations does not mean that they are comparable in the way that you are attempting to demonstrate. In fact, in doing so, you are perpetuating a much more harmful (and racist) narrative than the one that you’re trying to debunk, because you’re encouraging the perception that there are “good” minorities (Asians and Indians) and “bad” minorities (Blacks and Latinos).

2. Racial bias is not just about White vs. the rest- Minority students are not just treated differently from Whites; they’re treated differently from each other. Statistically, race has been shown to determine whether a student is labeled with a learning disability or a behavioral problem. Blacks are 4 times more likely to be labeled as having a behavioral problem and Latinos 3 times, whereas Asians and Whites tend to be labeled with learning disabilities much more often. (Minorities such as Indians make up a much smaller subset of the public school population, therefore there is little statistically significant information available, that I am aware of- full disclosure- I’m a public school teacher). Interestingly enough, the same exact behaviors are exhibited in students with learning disabilities and students with behavioral problems, so why are some classified as having a disability while others are considered “problem” students? Simply put, it’s racial bias. Teachers have a tendency to, like you, believe that Asian kids are “good” minorities and Latinos and Blacks are a bunch of punks and they treat those kids accordingly. Now put yourself in a Black kid’s shoes. If you grew up being treated like you’re a pain and a hassle to deal with, how do you think you’ll respond? What if you’re a student that’s given extra help and attention from your teacher? Want to hear something even worse? Black kids make up 80% of special ed. classrooms in schools where they make up less than half of the school population. So when they’re not being labeled delinquents, they’re written off as retarded.

3. Socioeconomics is not just a number- I don’t want to be responsible for stating unsubstantiated generalities about ethnic populations without some numbers to back me up, but I can give you some anecdotal information from my time in public schools and my experiences with the system. In your article, you show an example of a school that compares Asians and Blacks that come from families that make less than $50k a year. Current economic finances do not make up the whole of a socioeconomic picture. For example, a Japanese family who moves to the United States has a much higher likelihood of having been well-served by education in their own country before coming here. Meaning, the parents probably received a good education, and probably had a solid financial plan for moving to the United States, by virtue of the fact that they had to have a good solid plan in order to be given an exit visa by their own country and an entrance/residence visa by the U.S.- unlike Latinos, whose geographic proximity to the U.S. and their country’s lax exit visa policies make it much more easier for them to come here. Regardless of how much or little they might get when they get here, these are parents that have experienced and understand the value of an education and have a clear goal of what they’re working towards. Not so for an inner city black kid, or a second or third generation minority whose parents have a 75% probability of never having completed high school. These students are part of a population that has never been well-served by the education system and so they have no experience or ability to imagine that there is a possibility of anything better and no clear image of how education can get them there. Certainly teachers are not good at explaining this. There are additional barriers as well: parents who do not speak English miss a lot of information about educational opportunities for their kids, so even if they want to help or be further involved, they don’t know how. Statistically, Asians and Indians will know some English before they get here. (Don’t forget India was a British commonwealth until recently). And to imply that Blacks and Latino parents are worse at parenting than White, Asian, or Indian parents completely misses the point. You can be a good parent but not understand the educational system or how to work it. Also, because schools are funded by the property taxes of the area in which they are located, low-income schools most certainly suffer from a huge lack of resources- including good teachers. There are not many teachers that come out of college wanting to go into inner city schools to work, and the ones that do, don’t stick around for very long. Nobody likes their job to be harder than it has to be.
4. Attacking liberals won’t help- by reducing arguments to an oversimplified rhetoric and then ascribing it to “liberals” or “conservatives” you do much more harm than you realize. That is the tactics of newsgroups and politicians, used to distract the populace with extremist sound bites that will keep people from concentrating on the actual issues and coming together to form solutions. If you are truly interested in exploring this kind of theme and want to do something valuable, then go ahead and ask questions, but then do your research and don’t make assumptions. These problems do exist, and they are very real and an L.A. Times article won’t change the facts. We should be coming together to try to solve these problems, rather than continue to espouse a dogmatic rhetoric which does nothing to serve the populace.
jsares

The whole concept of 'white' is a lie. White is not a skin color but a class and political philosophy.

Poor 'white' kids from inner city Detroit have the same chance of elevating their social class as poor black kids from the same area. The poor 'white' kids will face less discrimination from the gatekeepers of society but they're not just going to give them a blank check.

This is a class problem. The USA has lost ground on being a place where poor people can hope their child can get out of the ghetto. It's more likely that the kids of a middle class family will end up in one.
Johanna

I'm sorry this is such a long response, but I sense in your post that you want answers, so here is my effort to help you.

1. Comparing ethnic groups to each other is not apples to apples- just because the four ethnic groups you mentioned: Black, Latino, Asian, and Indian are non-white populations does not mean that they are comparable in the way that you are attempting to demonstrate. In fact, in doing so, you are perpetuating a much more harmful (and racist) narrative than the one that you’re trying to debunk, because you’re encouraging the perception that there are “good” minorities (Asians and Indians) and “bad” minorities (Blacks and Latinos).

2. Racial bias is not just about White vs. the rest- Minority students are not just treated differently from Whites; they’re treated differently from each other. Statistically, race has been shown to determine whether a student is labeled with a learning disability or a behavioral problem. Blacks are 4 times more likely to be labeled as having a behavioral problem and Latinos 3 times, whereas Asians and Whites tend to be labeled with learning disabilities much more often. (Minorities such as Indians make up a much smaller subset of the public school population, therefore there is little statistically significant information available, that I am aware of- full disclosure- I’m a public school teacher). Interestingly enough, the same exact behaviors are exhibited in students with learning disabilities and students with behavioral problems, so why are some classified as having a disability while others are considered “problem” students? Simply put, it’s racial bias. Teachers have a tendency to, like you, believe that Asian kids are “good” minorities and Latinos and Blacks are a bunch of punks and they treat those kids accordingly. Now put yourself in a Black kid’s shoes. If you grew up being treated like you’re a pain and a hassle to deal with, how do you think you’ll respond? What if you’re a student that’s given extra help and attention from your teacher? Want to hear something even worse? Black kids make up 80% of special ed. classrooms in schools where they make up less than half of the school population. So when they’re not being labeled delinquents, they’re written off as retarded.

3. Socioeconomics is not just a number- I don’t want to be responsible for stating unsubstantiated generalities about ethnic populations without some numbers to back me up, but I can give you some anecdotal information from my time in public schools and my experiences with the system. In your article, you show an example of a school that compares Asians and Blacks that come from families that make less than $50k a year. Current economic finances do not make up the whole of a socioeconomic picture. For example, a Japanese family who moves to the United States has a much higher likelihood of having been well-served by education in their own country before coming here. Meaning, the parents probably received a good education, and probably had a solid financial plan for moving to the United States, by virtue of the fact that they had to have a good solid plan in order to be given an exit visa by their own country and an entrance/residence visa by the U.S.- unlike Latinos, whose geographic proximity to the U.S. and their country’s lax exit visa policies make it much more easier for them to come here. Regardless of how much or little they might get when they get here, these are parents that have experienced and understand the value of an education and have a clear goal of what they’re working towards. Not so for an inner city black kid, or a second or third generation minority whose parents have a 75% probability of never having completed high school. These students are part of a population that has never been well-served by the education system and so they have no experience or ability to imagine that there is a possibility of anything better and no clear image of how education can get them there. Certainly teachers are not good at explaining this. There are additional barriers as well: parents who do not speak English miss a lot of information about educational opportunities for their kids, so even if they want to help or be further involved, they don’t know how. Statistically, Asians and Indians will know some English before they get here. (Don’t forget India was a British commonwealth until recently). And to imply that Blacks and Latino parents are worse at parenting than White, Asian, or Indian parents completely misses the point. You can be a good parent but not understand the educational system or how to work it. Also, because schools are funded by the property taxes of the area in which they are located, low-income schools most certainly suffer from a huge lack of resources- including good teachers. There are not many teachers that come out of college wanting to go into inner city schools to work, and the ones that do, don’t stick around for very long. Nobody likes their job to be harder than it has to be.
4. Attacking liberals won’t help- by reducing arguments to an oversimplified rhetoric and then ascribing it to “liberals” or “conservatives” you do much more harm than you realize. That is the tactics of newsgroups and politicians, used to distract the populace with extremist sound bites that will keep people from concentrating on the actual issues and coming together to form solutions. If you are truly interested in exploring this kind of theme and want to do something valuable, then go ahead and ask questions, but then do your research and don’t make assumptions. These problems do exist, and they are very real and an L.A. Times article won’t change the facts. We should be coming together to try to solve these problems, rather than continue to espouse a dogmatic rhetoric which does nothing to serve the populace.
jsares

The whole concept of 'white' is a lie. White is not a skin color but a class and political philosophy.

Poor 'white' kids from inner city Detroit have the same chance of elevating their social class as poor black kids from the same area. The poor 'white' kids will face less discrimination from the gatekeepers of society but they're not going to give them a blank check.

This is a class problem. The USA has lost ground on being a place where poor people can hope their child can get out of the ghetto. It's more likely that the kids of a middle class family will end up in one.
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AV

On the contrary, liberals make much better parents than conservatives do. Working class and upper middle class conservative parents are notorious for being terrible parents. They are overprotective and always follow the herd mentality. These conservatives are the dreaded “helicopter parents”- who stifle any kind of individuality and freedom.

Liberal-bashing and veiled racism is always a losing proposition. It’s scapegoating.

http://profiles.yahoo.com/u/QNT75I4YMVZFJOCNOKY5GVIFKQ Enzo

Really? Like the liberal San Francisco parents who won’t vaccinate their kids and 10 died from whooping cough? Those liberal dumb asses?

Guest

whoa don’t confuse liberals with hipppies. Liberals believe in government and vaccination. Hippie hollywood actors (yes it started in hollywood) are the ones who started this stupid anti-vaccination movement. People throw the liberal word around too much.
Leonsheldon

We don’t call all conservatives members of the KKK, so let’s not make the same comparison of smart liberals and ignorant idiots.

kevin

i used to teach, and the liberal parents were always worse with the “helicopter parent” behaviors you talk about. frankly, i don’t think the parents make as much of a difference as the culture- who the kids hang out with at school, what those people value, etc. i’ve seen kids with great, attentive, smart parents turn into apathetic deadbeats with no concern for their own education, and vice versa. peer pressure plays a much larger role, in my opinion, than parental involvement.
Jack

I think “helicopter parents” are precisely the kind of parents black and Hispanic children growing up in poor neighborhood needs.
masterbeef

What the fuck are you talking about? Do you realize how stupid your statement is? The best parents are parents who are there that care. Plain and simple, has nothing to do with political preference.

It’s not racism, it’s just TRUE. Blacks and Hispanics are the ones who scapegoat because their children don’t do well in school. I live in DC, I know how fucked up and pissed a population can get over failing students. The solution, pay the children for good grades! How about this: expect your children to do well in school for the sake of doing well in school all you dumb fucking idiots in DC who have children you should not have.

Liberal bashing? It’s true AV, this is liberal bashing, for not saying what needs to be said (re: Bill Cosby, he said exactly this, and guess what, black people were fiercely divided on the issue, those who agree say he’s right [which he is, no denying it], those who disagree say all kinds of nasty shit).

Don’t make stuff up, and swallow the truth.

aliberal

What’s with this “liberals love to blame” bullshit? Like anybody on the left side of the spectrum gets their jollies on dismissing personal parental responsibility. You could have written this article without the vitriolic bullshit.

This is useful information that “the left” should know, if you’re an asshole about it then people who would benefit from the information aren’t going to bother making it past the first sentence before dismissing it as partisan bullshit (which it is, but it’s partisan bullshit wrapped around an important topic)

http://danielmiessler.com/ Daniel Miessler

First, I am a liberal, living in San Francisco.

Now, imagine a scenario where someone makes the statement, “The primary problem with different groups failing or succeeding in school is the attitude that those groups’ parents have toward education.”

This is a clean, non-biased, supported-by-evidence statement.

Now, which political party will absolutely blow the fuck up when they hear this?

Liberals. They are the obstacle. And so are you for running around attacking those who point to the real issues. You, sir, are part of the problem.

Arun

Quote: “Now, imagine a scenario where someone makes the statement, “The primary problem with different groups failing or succeeding in school is the attitude that those groups’ parents have toward education.”

This is a clean, non-biased, supported-by-evidence statement.”

Yes, it is.

Quote: “Now, which political party will absolutely blow the fuck up when they hear this?

Liberals. They are the obstacle. And so are you for running around attacking those who point to the real issues. You, sir, are part of the problem. “

This, however, is not clean, not non-biased, and not supported-by-evidence. The real crowd you’re against is people who don’t read past political and social bias to see truth, and simply listen to what they’re fed by someone without thinking for a while about it and researching it. PLEASE don’t associate me with that crowd because I’m liberal. I wouldn’t do that to any conservative either.

BORG

Your finger pointing liberal nonsense ruins this article.

If you’ve done any research, you’d find that conservatives really could give 2 shits about our kid’s education. They don’t care about our kids or their education. They want to take away teacher’s retirement plans, take away art & music, increase class size and then rate our kids on some bullshit test that’s based on the lowest common denominator….and then the teachers are supposed to concentrate on educating our kids?!?!

Over the last 2 years, I’ve heard more racist, paranoia fueled lies and comments coming from the “conservatives” than anyone else.

You, sir,….sound like a complete moron.

http://danielmiessler.com/ Daniel Miessler

First, I am a liberal, living in San Francisco.Now, imagine a scenario where someone makes the statement, “The primary problem with different groups failing or succeeding in school is the attitude that those groups’ parents have toward education.”This is a clean, non-biased, supported-by-evidence statement.Now, which political party will absolutely blow the fuck up when they hear this?Liberals. They are the obstacle. And so are you for running around attacking those who point to the real issues. You, sir, are part of the problem.

ultrawill

I like how you’re just copying and pasting the same answer to multiple vaguely-related comments instead of formulating a genuine response specific to each one, which in turn wouldn’t make you seem like a half-minded dunce.

http://danielmiessler.com/ Daniel Miessler

The questions were not sufficiently different to warrant a different response. Even so, they were different.
http://danielmiessler.com/ Daniel Miessler

Also, I like your username.

Reality

The “painful fact” we need to avert our eyes from isn’t just culture, it’s genetic differences in IQ.

Sir Robin

You sir, are a masterful troll.
http://twitter.com/MetalPhil MetalPhil

Gah. Racial differences in IQ based on genetics was disproven as bad, normative science in the 1940s.

Congratulations for believing in the biological/genetic equivalent of ether.

Akhilesh

The article misses an important point: not all Asians (Indians are Asians too) can make it to the US. Asian immigration into the US is a recent phenomenon. And since the US allows only talented people through (doctors, engineers and other educated professionals), it stands to reason that their offspring will do well. And this trend will likely continue on over the next few generations.

I would see if there’s a correlation between academic indicators and parental income and see if Asians still deviate.

Anonymous

“According to a study of census data, 84% of the Asian and Latino families in the neighborhoods around Lincoln High have median annual household incomes below $50,000. And yet the Science Bowl team is 90% Asian, as is the Academic Decathlon team.”

Nick

I bet the parents, on average, have a higher level of education.

http://pulse.yahoo.com/_EEWWKLJ2IHOZTT3LILONGMK7YU R

Lol! Aren’t Indians, in fact, Asians dummy?!
Jim March

Yup. Culture matters.

The two places it matters most are education and violence levels…the latter even moreso than education.

The black inner city “hip hop culture” has come unglued as far as violence levels go…by far the most violent subculture in the US. In those cases where the race of a murderer is known, over 50% of all murders in the US are committed by blacks, and they make up only 15% of the US population.

Repairing a culture is hard work, and calling for cultural reform if you’re not a member of that subculture gets you a lot of grief. Bill Cosby has been trying for years, Obama, various liberal politicians of all sorts and the NAACP don’t have anywhere near the guts. So they call for gun control as an easy answer except it visibly doesn’t work. Violence levels in Detroit have been dropping after the 2001 implementation of a law allowing anybody (of any race) to carry a gun if they pass a background check and training. The NAACP fought that law desperately. The law itself was passed in 1926 at the request of the KKK (literally!) after a black doctor (Henry Sweet) and his family shot at a charging lynch mob and were sprung on self defense grounds by Clarence Darrow. Despite pressure from the NAACP and other Liberal groups, the new law reversing the Klan-backed law took effect and by 2004 Michigan’s murder rate dropped below Ohio’s for the first time in 40 years, which triggered (pardon the pun) Ohio’s passage of the same sort of law.

If a culture is dysfunctional, saying so doesn’t make anybody a racist. And that fact that cultures vary in terms of “quality” has a lot of implications beyond just education.
1man+dog

You mention three factors: school quality, culture/race, and economic status. To prove that culture is the sole contributing factor to student achievement you need to show two things:

1) If school quality and economic status are held constant and culture is varied then student performance varies. (Ie, student performance depends on culture.)

2) If culture is held constant, and the other two are varied then student performance remains fixed. (Ie, student performance is independent of the other two factors conditioning on culture.)

I don’t believe you provide conclusive evidence for either claim.

To support claim 1 you quote: “According to a study of census data, 84% of the Asian and Latino families in the neighborhoods around Lincoln High have median annual household incomes below $50,000. And yet the Science Bowl team is 90% Asian, as is the Academic Decathlon team.”

In this case the school quality is fixed as there is only a single school and the student performance (as measured by team attendance) varies with culture. Your quote however doesn’t rule out the possibility that economic status depends on race. If for example, there at 16 rich asian families and 84 poor latino families then it is still true that 84% of the asian and latino families are poor. Unless at that school the proportions of poor/middle class/rich asian families are equal to the proportions of poor/middle class/rich latino families, the economic status factor has not been properly controlled for. You do not prove conclusive evidence that this is the case.

Further, it is not clear that your measure of student performance is any good. If 90% of students are asian then we would expect the teams to be 90% asian if student performance is independent of race. Unless you provide information about the schools demographics, your measure of student performance is worthless.

To support claim 2 you link to a google search for “(asian OR indian) students (outperform OR outperforming)”. If I was being facetious my response might be a google search for “you’re wrong”. At 3,370,000 results to your 690,000 results, would this make me the winner?

That aside, the typical hit was along the lines of “the proportion of high SAT scoring student which are asian is larger than the proportion of students which are asian”. Even this is not sufficient to prove your claim. You need to show that for all pairs of schools, the proportion of asians which score highly are the same up to chance. The standard website theme does not achieve this. Imagine school A has 200 asian students and 100 non-asian students with 100% of each scoring highly, and school B has 100 asian students and 200 non-asian students with 0% of each scoring highly. In this instance the proportion of high scores which are asian (67%) is larger than the proportion of the population which is asian (50%), however, the performance of asian students is dependent on the school they attend. Hence, what I assume is your evidence, does not prove that student performance does not depend on school quality for culture held constant.

~~~

Your blog post proves nothing.

1man+dog

As a pre-emptive counter nit pick, you may claim that “84% of the Asian and Latino families…have median annual household incomes below $50,000″ means:

84% of the Asian families have median annual household incomes below $50,000, and 84% of the Latino families have median annual household incomes below $50,000

In response: 1) I find it hard to believe the proportions are the same to two decimal places for both groups. 2) Even if this is the case, your measure of student performance makes this information useless because it only focuses on the top few kids. To see this, imagine there are 84 poor asian families, 6 middle class asian families, 10 rich asian families, 84 poor latino families and 16 middle class latino families. Assume that school performance = money and take the top 12 students in the school for the math team. The group will contain 11 asians and 1 latino (since by assumption asian middle class student performance = latino middle class student performance). We have information about the least wealthy families for each group but the measure of student performance only cares about the most wealthy families for which we have no information.

SC

I feel like this post is missing some important elements.

Yes, there is a different cultural construction and focus on school/knowledge acquisition that can and does account for disparities of East Asian/Indian success in school. BUT: so-called “parenting styles” does not take into account the massive number of sociocultural factors that do disproportionately affect Black and Latino kids in the States. And yes, some of that is income level, which affects quality of schools in the area & also determines whether a parent has the time to help their kids with school in the first place. Additionally, there’s the impact of cultural framing of Black/Latino kids and what’s considered “acceptable” in peer/social groups, based in part on media stereotypes.

I’m concerned with the author’s assertion that this is just parenting thing, that pretty strongly implies that Black and Latino populations and culture inherently provide poor parenting, as compared to East Asian, Indian, and White cultures. There’s an implication that these cultures are simply “less than”.

Huh

Bad parenting and the state of the culture are intertwined. They are products of each other and in this case, yes, in terms of educations, one is certainly less able to produce educated students. However, I’m curious about how many of the lower-income East Asian/Indian cases are immigrants compared to Hispanics and Blacks. I think that it certainly shows a disparity in culture, but not by race, but problems in the American culture as a whole. It’s interesting that nothing was mentioned about White people in poor economic conditions as well.

Jjgyrl66

All of this blamestorming needs to stop. Stop the fingerpointing, get off your high horses and volunteer. Yes Asians and Indians succeed academically in the US public school system because their parents won’t tolerate failure. It’s a disgrace to the family where as in other cultures it’s “cool” to act dumb and disrespect authority yet those parents do nothing to break the cycle. Maybe it’s “pop culture” that is defeating the Blacks, Whites and Latinos. Hmmm.
Rich Gee

Bravo! It’s time that someone actually said this out loud. And to be honest, it’s been like this for DECADES.
masterbeef

Bill Cosby did, Bill Cosby did it.

Also, ranges of IQ from highest to lowest: Asian/Indian, White, Black. PERIOD.

DaveCS

Could you please provide a source for this statement? If you can’t or will not provide some evidence, then your argument has absolutely no validity. Period.

Eatshit

Your a moron. If you are going to write about something this big, you cant poke at the surface and touch on only the educational aspects of the racial dynamics in schools. You just made everyone more racist, ignorant, and stupid.

lol

Your a moron. If you are going to write about something this big, you cant poke at the surface and touch on only the educational aspects of the racial dynamics in schools. You just made everyone more racist, ignorant, and stupid.

Your a moron. If you are going to write about something this big

Your a moron.

Your
John

You’d do a lot better at making your point if you could learn proper spelling and manners.

SC made much the same point you did, but no nearly in as such a condescending tone. You won’t win many people on your side with stuff like this.

Guess

I am an example of the validity of the above article.

I am Asian-American. My family immigrated to US when I was 11. My dad washed dishes at a local restaurant, while my mom cleaned tables in the same place. Obviously, we didn’t have very much money. I grew up in a poor area. I went to the most socially diverse high school in the state. It also had (and still has) the lowest median household income in the city.

Growing up, my parents beat the idea into my head that academic success will allow me to have a good life. Our culture placed education on top of all achievements, well beyond athletic performance. Doing well in school wasn’t an option, it was a requirement.

I fully attribute this parenting style to my relative academic success. I received a full ride scholarship for college, albeit at state school, but still a full ride. This spring, I will graduate with a Masters in Engineering.

Culture and parenting doesn’t make someone, but it has a huge influence. If you want to improve academic performance, improve parenting style and cultural influences.
A_ching24

This article was such racist bullshit. India is a country in Asia and asians are considered “honorary whites”. You seriously believe black and latinos do bad because of bad parenting!!.. they do bad because institutionalized socioeconomic racism. Society is constantly bitch slaping blacks and latinos.

Steve

Then can you “fix” education if “Society is constantly bitch slaping blacks and latinos”?

It then becomes pointless as an educational issue and becomes a societal issue.

http://nathanfarrar.com/ F4RR4R

I don’t think this is a very honest article. Your extremely inaccurate presentation of the “liberal narrative” is insulting.

I love what you have to say about technology but if you’re going to write about politics you need to put in more effort.
CALib

I agree with most of what you say, but I think that you’re wrong to assume that racism can only exist when it’s against all “non-whites.” Racism means mistreating people based on their race. It isn’t impossible to imagine that racist people treat different races differently. Anecdotally, I’ve met high school teachers who honestly believe that African Americans are genetically predisposed to lower intelligence. How is a kid in that classroom going to have any chance, regardless of parental influence? Certainly there are aspects of culture that are affecting student performance, but can you really eliminate all external forces on those cultures?
a student

I’m sorry, but why separate Asians and Indians when Indians are also Asian?
http://pensivities.blogspot.com/ Pensitivites

The problem with your article is that issue of parental influence and school quality are orthogonal to each other. You can have an particular student “dominate” in an otherwise awful school because of their parents supported them more. But that doesn’t exculpate the school. It is still important to improve the quality of the schools, though perhaps more effort should be made to help parents better support their children’s education.
Mikelant

Culture is just one of the factors, but is not even one of the top 3. There are many factors that play into the success of the kids. There are hundreds of schools in America where you don’t find one single white, asian or Indian kid. There are only low income hispanic and black families in these neighborhoods and the kids have to attend the worse schools in the country. They don’t have a chance. In the schools where you have kids form all races, socio-economics is the difference. Most parents wish they could help their children succeed. the truth is, not all parents can or know how. Help the children with homework? good luck, some parents can not even do 4th grade math. after all these, culture comes into play.
Ross

I agree with this article.
Miscellany

This quote:

“According to a study of census data, 84% of the Asian and Latino families in the neighborhoods around Lincoln High have median annual household incomes below $50,000. And yet the Science Bowl team is 90% Asian, as is the Academic Decathlon team.”

does not imply what you want it to. I suppose the Science Bowl and Academic Decathlon teams are small, so it is possible they are filled with well to do Asians. Just because a school has a large population of poor Asian does not imply the top performing Asians are poor.

Secondly, if the teams are small, say a few people each, then they are not really very good sample sizes from which to make conclusions, as any beginning statistics student knows. However, since that part is not clear from the quote, I’ll leave it as something needing clarified before claiming it is truly a fault in the reasoning.

I suppose the original author and yourself are products of these American schools, where fallacious confusing of correlation and causation allows such statements to be put forth as evidence, when the statement does not contain almost any substance.
justanotherday

There is a much bigger picture here. The school system is horrible. The same reason our health system is horrible. Poor management or strategic. It is not because the resources are not there, however, the system controlling it does not what it to work in the best interest of the individual people. It is that simple. Intelligence is a two edge sward. In the hands of our youth, is a thermal nuclear bomb. Youth do not know or understand what can’t be done.(…and how much that can irritate politicians.) So they will find a way to do the impossible regardless utilizing their most valuable asset: “Youth.” Want a twenty year old president? How about world peace? Cures for diseases? A cleaner earth? Sounds like a better planet? Not for the people and companies that are earning their wealth off of the suffering of the people. Pharmaceutical companies will not allow a cure for a disease they spent millions of dollars developing a patentable treatment for life. Oil industry will not tolerate a total solar conversion over night regardless of how much oil consumption results in devastation to our planet and ecosystem. Besides, at one time, a high school diploma was like having a PHD. Asian and Indian kids know the deal and see through the smoke and mirrors–yes, mainly because of the parents. I can only compare this to the kids of the great depression. Nothing says education like not having food, a place to live and/or being oppressed. Now, kids come out of High school unable to read and unable to pass a college placement exam. Colleges love it because they can charge big bucks for High school classes and extend a students time in college by at least one year. So it is important to keep children from becoming too smart. Yes, a few slip through, however, the majority are kept behind. Remember G. W. Bush’s: “…no child left behind”? It also means: “No child gets ahead.” Unless you are really… really smart, you will never be advanced to an upper grade. They claim it is too disruptive. Also, parents do care when they know there child is acting up, however, since video cameras are not allowed in the classroom (Teacher’s Union), it is the teachers word against the child. If a parent sees their child acting up in class, it would be a very different story. Yes, some child abuse cases will result. In all cases, the child will realize the importance of an education. Finally it is too costly and time consuming to tend to various levels of intelligence and balance not allowing kids to become too smart.
Bourdieu

I agree that parents play a major role in the education of their children, but this article implicitly reinforces the model minority myth on Asians and South Asians with the assumption that their culture inherently makes their kids perform better in school.

The problem is that there are plenty of asian and Indian students in low income communities who are also failing in school. Here, economic capital may not be as important as a factor as cultural capital: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cultural_capital. It is probable that a lot of the successful Asian and Indian students have parents who had high cultural capital and may have either been highly educated in their native country or were trained and skilled professionals. These values could have been spread to their children, giving them the skills to succeed even in light of their economic situation.

Granted, there are exceptions to every situation, and a lot of hard work goes far regardless of how much capital a student’s parent has. But before we attribute a student’s success to their mere race and culture, it’s more important to examine what kind of training and education their parents have. Since many Asian and Indian immigrants come here with a decent amount of education, they may have a jump start on their children when compared to other immigrants who may have had little education or training prior to their arrival in the United States.

It’s definitely not always black and white.
Freddie

Although the way the author reached his conclusion may be in question, the conclusion itself is supported by several other sources in several other scenarios. Read “Black American Students in An Affluent Suburb: A Study of Academic Disengagement ” if you’re interested.
Pingback: If the problem is the bad American schools, why are the Asian and Indian kids doing so well? Easy: it’s the parents, not the schools. « Netcrema – creme de la social news via digg + delicious + stumpleupon + reddit
Root

Why do you keep referring to “libruls”? Are you some kind of moron?
http://www.facebook.com/people/Jocelyn-Testes-Harder/1548596013 Jocelyn Testes-Harder

Whites like our kids to end up dumb and poor = http://www.filthyrichmond.com/2009/03/blame-teachers.html
Anonymous

India is in Asia. Technically Indians are Asians but I’m sure you knew that.
raijin

I’m a graduate of Lincoln High and an Asian American who was naturalized. While I do agree that my parents and their cultural heritage have emphasized the important of school ever since I was young, I don’t think it was the only factor for my doing well in school. From my personal experience, like ever other race there was a range of Asians with varying intelligence. My concern is with the tracks they put each student on, something that is decided from a very young age. Counselors decided what type of classes(difficulty) to put each student in based on their tracks, something that is determined based on a test given in elementary school. I’ve heard of students being discouraged from taking Advanced Placement courses from Counselors because they thought it would be too hard for them. Whereas I was placed on a track where I would take many AP courses.

All the best teachers were teaching AP courses, because the continuation of the course is based on the results of the AP exam. A teacher that produced poor results could not keep teacher AP courses for very long. Guess what courses and track these teachers end up teaching? While tracks are not absolute, it seems like the system is built to keep certain students from succeeding. Anyways, some of the best AP teachers left because they were fed up with the administration and they felt it was hard to just teach. I keep hearing that the school is going to be taken over by the state sooner or later.

What parent wouldn’t want their kids to do well? And even among Asian parents from that area, how involved they are in their kid’s schooling can vary. I think race is only the surface of the problem.
http://twitter.com/MetalPhil MetalPhil

There are some interesting points that were raised here, but I have a few comments. While I agree that familial structures and cultural methods of rearing children must have an effect on how children succeed in school, I think that you’re glazing over some important implications that come with American racial history. The way that African Americans are treated comes with a history—a history that isn’t the same as the history of Indians or Asians (who, btw, also have prejudices against them as well). This history is one of systematic repression, segregation and so forth—while Indians and Asians certainly experience prejudice, they have (often) not experienced generations of segregation and oppression as their starting point. That, combined with the fact that there is a racial stereotype of Asians and Indians as being “good, hard workers” and “smart” means that they are expected to succeed in technical areas. This certainly cannot be said of African Americans, who are expected to be thugs and welfare mothers (by their stereotypes). To simplify the ethnic equation by saying “BUT LOOK! INDIANS ARE BROWN AND THEY GET GOOD GRADES!” shows a deep disinterest for actually understanding how racism works and the structures by which it is maintained in society.

The point about family involvement is interesting, if sad. Everyone needs to be spending more time directly involved in the schooling of their children and helping to motivate their kids by being involved in the homework process and so on. I think by having high, but reasonable standards for your children they will strive to live up to them (there are, of course, exceptions). And you’re right, even in challenging situations this is possible. Giving laptops to children isn’t the solution to these problems, because it doesn’t change attitudes.

This is not to say that somehow not giving children updated books, or building innovations in schools is bad. I also think that calls for increased funding are important, largely because I believe that teachers deserve a raise across the board for many years to come in order to facilitate a raising of the status of the work. While you can argue that families have an important role to play and I believe that they do, the teaching profession needs to also attract better individuals who don’t see going into teaching as a cause for which they will be paid little and do lots of work, but as a viable career option—thereby attracting talented individuals as well as compassionate ones (this isn’t to say that the teachers who go into teaching now are not talented, but I suspect that talented people who would consider the career get syphoned into other careers because of the pay). In Finland the teaching programs are highly competitive and attract students with high grades, partially ’cause teachers make a lot of money and they send out the best teachers they can into the workforce. Finland also has excellent educational outcomes. This is important because not every child is going to have parents who are involved. So in that case, at least, those children will have different sources of inspiration.

Another important thing would be to change the funding structure of school districts so that there aren’t such vast inequalities in districts; which, in turn, would move a good proportion of the money from wealthy districts to poor districts, making poorer districts more appealing to better teachers because resources are also an attraction.
SeriouslyIsThisAll

My first thought when I came across this article: “well, duh”. It’s no secret that Asian(emigrant) parents put a higher value on education and don’t let their kids slack off in school to the extent. Growing up, my Asian friends weren’t shy about this fact, and made it pretty clear how easy I (a white kid) had it. I wasn’t aware that this fact even needed to be stated. I really wish the article could have gone into detail about what parents are and aren’t doing to encourage their children’s education. At the very least, the author could have elaborated on why the cultures differ so much.
RedditDude

To hear you tell it, I could pluck a random Asian family from anywhere in China, drop them in the United States and they’d magically culturally dominate Blacks and Latins.

Note I said if I plucked them. Not if they came to this country on their own volition. And if I did, statistically, they would fail harder than Blacks/Latins.

The huge gaping fallacy in your conclusions is the complete failure to mention self-selection as a factor. People that come to this country from India and China have a lonnnng boat ride (metaphorically speaking) versus Latins from south of the border, which have a much easier go at getting across.

A different set of ideals an expectations — a cultural subset that values education — by and large entice those specifically selected Asians and Indians to travel that far. They’re also more likely to come here legally vs illegally, something that heavily skews your sample.
Qin Jing

Indians are Asians too,,,, If you want to differentiate Indians from other Asians, call the others “Orientals”, which is a racist term used in this country and elsewhere. Get your facts straight!! India is in the Asian continent.. hence, people from the Indian sub-continent are known as Asians and Not simply Indians… Indian can also be referred to American Indians which are not the same as East Indians or Asian Indians. It is best that you refer to Indians as Asian Indians since it is most appropriate considering the geo-cultural-linguistic-religious presence and influence India has on the rest of Asia. India and China have the biggest influence in all of Asia culturally, with regards to language and Buddhist religion. For all you Americans that have no idea about the origins of language and religion, Buddha was from India and a lot of the Southeast Asian languages are derived from Sanskrit which is an ancient Indian language, and yes, curry is originally from India that is widely used in Asian dishes… So please educate yourself about India and Asian cultures first before making such ignorant statements…

Qin Jing Asian Studies Scholar National University of Singapore
Qin Jing

Indians are Asians too,,,, If you want to differentiate Indians from other Asians, call the others “Orientals”, which is a racist term used in this country and elsewhere. Get your facts straight!! India is in the Asian continent.. hence, people from the Indian sub-continent are known as Asians and Not simply Indians… Indian can also be referred to American Indians which are not the same as East Indians or Asian Indians. It is best that you refer to Indians as Asian Indians since it is most appropriate considering the geo-cultural-linguistic-religious presence and influence India has on the rest of Asia. India and China have the biggest influence in all of Asia culturally, with regards to language and Buddhist religion. For all you Americans that have no idea about the origins of language and religion, Buddha was from India and a lot of the Southeast Asian languages are derived from Sanskrit which is an ancient Indian language, and yes, curry is originally from India that is widely used in Asian dishes… So please educate yourself about India and Asian cultures first before making such ignorant statements…

Qin Jing Asian Studies Scholar National University of Singapore

http://twitter.com/MetalPhil MetalPhil

It is true that saying “Asian” isn’t helpful and that “Indian” can be a little bit hard to narrow down; but I don’t think that anyone reading this post had any confusion about which Indians the author was referring to or whether or not India is technically Asian. To differentiate the two is considered correct by the American standards of race classification. If you want to critique something, that’s a good place to start. ;)

If The Problem Were Simply Sub-Standard American Schools, Asian and Indian Kids Would Be Doing Poorly As Well

By Daniel Miessler on February 11th, 2009: Tagged as Culture | Education

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