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  • http://bensauer.myopenid.com/ Redbeard

    I am reminded of this recent article about what prison is like: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=136858

    In short, the black inmates were often from families where the men had been in prison for generations. Prison has become a normal thing for them: parental expectations must be very low in order for this to happen.

    I find the tone of Daniel’s argument to be rather distracting, e.g. “liberals are wrong/offended when you bring this up” etc. Why not tackle the root instead of the surface? I think people will respond better to this:

    Why is it that a particular culture may have low expectations for itself?

    What can be done to change this?

  • SuperBad

    What the ? What the??? You can take any child with the right conditions and turn him/her into a rocket scientist. No racial intent here; however, it seems that culture plays a big role here, ie…family beliefs and religion, attitudes toward education and learning, and behavioralism. Even if the parents can’t understand the educational materials, it would seem feasible that as long as the family did enforce the childrens behaviours to study and take part in other educational activities besides watching TV, then the children may actually excel as they would be empowered with their own brains. Unfortunately – Culture and poor learning behaviours are in fact to blame. The studies show that these children are given all the necessary tools to learn and that they can speak english fine. It’s what they do with it when they get home- Live it, learn it, love it…. If no one is enforcing it at home, it’s just a waisted “Brain” :(

  • Kimberly Allterrain

    so true!! i couldnt agree anymore!!!

  • Asian

    What do you mean Asian AND Indian? India, last time I checked, is in fact part of the Asian continent.

  • Emeigh1wm

    You know honestly I’m just happy to see something in defense of teachers. I see a lot of teachers being blamed for poor performance from their students when they are thrust into near un-teachable situations. For instance in Texas teachers are all but forced to teach specifically to the state run testing (ala foundation for no child left behind but actually enacted). More often than not they end up spending most of their time teaching testing strategies and not the material. Keep in mind that schools are judged solely on how their students perform on these tests. If schools don’t perform up to specific “Standards” then the entire school all but becomes the black spot on a district. Also keep in mind that students do these tests every year starting in the first grade so they are understandbly a little worn out by their senior year of high school.

    Since these tests seem to not be getting the results expected instead of paring back testing they are instead introducing a newer more difficult test for the next year. Never mind the fact that quite a few students have trouble passing the old test that they are now scratching. I agree and have personally seen that Indian and Asian students perform better, and yes this is cultural. Parents in those cultures teach their children to make things happen in any way possible which is wonderful. The problem I have is that there is only this one way to judge students performance by. I really think that if students had ways besides standardized testing, which many documented studies have proven only work for specific students, they might actually learn something and be able to apply it. As it stands now most students have to learn specific facts for a test and never for any real application and most of these students summarily forgive them. As it stands not only do we do a disservice to teachers, but to the students as well. Until we can fix this backwards system things won’t improve.

  • Anonymous

    The real reason why education is in the toilet: FEMINISM: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1_2LpLhOsc4

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  • Omnichronos

    Get your facts straight. Indians ARE Asians!

    • http://danielmiessler.com/ Daniel Miessler

      Right, and so are Russians.

  • Adam B.

    Stopped reading at “Liberals.”

  • Nick

    It probably has less to do with culture than it does the education level of the parents whose students who are doing well. Students who have parents that have been to college, regardless of race or culture, are going to do better.

  • Anonymous

    Label much? There is plenty of “blame” to go around. Parents, politicians, school bureaucracies, and teachers.

    What are you going to DO about it. Keep pointing fingers?

    How do you balance the desire for greater school achievement with the anti-science rhetoric spewed by so many? Are math and science important to the continued success of this country or are they not?

  • guest

    This is thinly veiled racism. Recent immigrants from specific cultures work hard so we don’t need to bother to create opportunities for those born here poor?

    • http://danielmiessler.com/ Daniel Miessler

      Who said we don’t have to create opportunities for them? The point is that given the same opportunity, some do better than others, and that this is due to culture. The answer is to teach those cultures that are bad at this to be better, and that starts with acknowledging there’s a problem. People like you who refuse to take that step keep them behind indefinitely.

  • John Haugeland

    Is there a reason, between your various politically motivated accusations, that you seem to forget to defend your claim about the cause?

    Assertions aren’t facts.

  • Vinto

    Why don’t you just say Indians and East Asians, instead of saying Indians and Asians.  It makes you look ignorant, as Indians are Asians too.  Would you ever say something like Chinese and Asians.  No.  Then why are you saying Indians and Asians.  Why is it so hard for you to say East Asian instead of Asian.  Like saying French and Europeans.

  • Jack David Baucum

    My wife teaches ESE at a south-side school. They are a pre-IB magnet school, which is the only reason they are not a Title One school. Most of her problem students come from problem households. Some of these kids, no matter how much problem they cause, no matter how mean they are to someone, no matter how sassy they get towards administrations, their parents are always pissed. Pissed at the school that their poor child got in trouble again. They don’t know why the world is out against their child. They don’t understand why no matter how many times they change schools their child gets in trouble everywhere they go. Obviously, to the, it is racial, it is unfair, and it is not their fault.

    There’s only a few problem kids that actually have parents trying to do something about it. Most are too lazy, to unprepared for parenthood, or often, just too busy (father’s in jail, mother working two or three jobs) to properly raise their child.

    Unfortunately this situation is heavily black and poor.

    Schools are more unprepared to handle these children than ever. The solution usually ends up being to try to find out who else’s problem they can make it. We have successful programs, backed by scientific research, to effectively handle these kids. However, nobody wants to fund taking care of what society sees as inevitable losers. The staff at school that is charged with caring for these children do not receive respect in their discipline. The money they are given usually finds its way spent in other areas despite the potential criminal charges that can be brought for such acts (misappropriating federal funds is a big no-no).

    So we have kids that are brought into a problematic family, put into a school system that knows how to deal with them but is unwilling to, and a society all to ready to jail them when they do not know how to make it as an adult, but end up repopulating at a rate higher than their peers.

    This is why social programs are not always “tax money being stolen from the wealthy to be given to the lazy.” When that person grows up to rob the store you are shopping in, or breaks into your house, or just ends up incarcerated on your dime, then it is your problem. It is everyone’s problem, and it is our collective responsibility to use sound scientific research to tackle it effectively.

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