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excellent point. Never even occurred to me, it’s not really a sacrifice at all, then, is it?
I just posted this to a Christian board that I debate on. I am very curious to see the responses… If any
You will probably be banned
“Jesus had a bad weekend for your sins” does not have quite the same ring to it, does it?
That’s only one of the many paradoxes of religion. I like to define theologians as “useless paradox solvers”. Of course, if you reject religion and accept science, those paradoxes don’t even exist in the first place.
I can’t really pretend to have answers for all of your questions here, but I would like to address a few.
“Some like to say that you can’t have good without evil. What kind of fourth-grader logic is that?”
This is actually a very well-known philosophical point, and it is pretty well recognized that without bad there can be no good. I won’t go into the detail of the argument here, but if you are really interested you should research it.
“The free will argument (that he gave free will, so it’s on us) is beyond ludicrous.”
This is kind of an aside, but many Christians do not believe in free will. A point I’ve tried to address with you before regarding your stance on free will, Atheism, and morality. Free-will is not synonymous with religion, and determinism is not synonymous with atheism.
I’ve thought of this point you’re making, and other’s similar to it before. There’s a lot missing from the Bible. You may find that obvious, but I mean it with a specific point. If one where to take the Bible literally there are things not covered in it that must be true. There must be some kind of “spiritual laws” that are never mentioned that even God is bound by, and cannot break. Relevant here, that a blood sacrifice is necessary for forgiveness, and that once forgiven, God is unable to even remember your sin. I am not that deep of a theologian, but I have been curious if this topic has been covered before and what the ideas are on this.
I don’t have much more here to offer in the ways of your points.
“”Some like to say that you can’t have good without evil. What kind of fourth-grader logic is that?”
This is actually a very well-known philosophical point, and it is pretty well recognized that without bad there can be no good. I won’t go into the detail of the argument here, but if you are really interested you should research it.”That is not the point though, why couldn’t an omnipotent god create a universe where there CAN be good without evil.
Who created the “spiritual laws” that god cannot even break, which is similar to the question, “Can an all-powerful god create a rock that is too heavy for it to lift?”. All-powerful, by definition, means that the god must be able to do ANYTHING, which is clearly not the case in your example.
All-powerful within the realms of possibility. True omnipotence including paradoxes is an impossible concept. God is omnipotent insofar as something can be done. Why do you think God needed Angels to mediate his will in the world? He never did anything directly. No one actually saw his face or heard his voice anywhere in the Bible, it was always “The Angel of the Lord, ” or “The Spirit of God,” or “The Son of God.” Also, how do you know that God didn’t create another universe where good can exist without evil?
Your arguments are weak and based on an embarrassing unfamiliarity with basic Christian doctrine.
“Oh, and the son is actually him. They’re the same person. Yeah.”
Actually, no. Orthodox Christianity has taught for 2000 years that the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit are three DISTINCT persons all sharing in one substance. A crude way of looking at it is like the Greek creature Cerberus. One entity with three centers of consciousness. The Son is not the Father. The Crucifixion was not God sacrificing Himself to Himself.
“Explain how an omnipotent entity cannot simply create 10,000 more sons”
Christianity does not teach that the Son was created, it teaches that he has always existed, being ‘eternally begotten’, meaning that the Son ‘proceeds forth’ from the father. Another crude analogy would be sun-rays. The Father would be like the sun and the Son would be like the rays of the sun. Both exist together at the same instant but one proceeds forth from the other.
“In the first case you can’t give someone true free will if you know all the variables that will affect their decisions. ”
Not true. Free will doesn’t mean ‘free from influence and circumstances’ free will means that your reaction to that influence and circumstances is your own. Christians that believe in a libertarian free will believe that God orchestrates circumstances ‘around’ our free acts so as to bring about his purposes. Our decisions made in his framework are still our own.
“But he knew he’d be back. He knew he’d live forever.”
Do all sacrifices have to be eternal to count as a sacrifice? Christianity teaches that The Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit have existed eternally in perfect relationship. Have you ever experienced perfect love? Perfect respect? Perfect understanding? No, no human has. The bond that God shares within the three persons of God is indescribably perfect. To experience that bond and to then have it severed for even a microsecond can be imagined as too great a burden to bear. Now couple that with the Christian teaching that he was voluntarily dying in punishment for the totality of all human sin: sin that he did not commit and was innocent of. Now I doubt anyone would consider that a non-sacrifice. However, this is exactly what Christianity teaches Christ was willing to do. He endured this ‘super-death’ so Humanity could be brought into a similar relationship with God despite our sins. He came as a human and assumed all guilt into his person so that through his death, humanity could be brought back into the fold as God had always intended.
Now if you have problems with this doctrine, feel free to write about it. Just do everyone a favor next time and please make sure you have a grasp on the topic of discussion before going on some angry rant.
Nothing you have said makes any sense. “They’re the same, but they’re not the same”. This is a contradiction. Either they are separate entities, or they are the same entity. They cannot be both simply to fit your theological needs.
Do all sacrifices have to be eternal to count as a sacrifice?
No, but you need to give up something for something else. Gaining EVERYTHING POSSIBLE in return isn’t a sacrifice. When I sacrifice my time, I don’t get that time back. I may have some gain, but I don’t get what I lost in return as well.
He never says that they are “the same but not the same” He says they three different people sharing the same substance. Like when Voldemort was living in the back of Professor Quirrel’s head in Harry Potter, except with two faces popping out of his hair line. Nor is going to heaven defined as gaining everything possible. In fact, to take that even further, I’m not entirely sure that the bible says that Jesus goes to heaven. I’m decently sure that it just says he ascends into the sky, which could be simply rejoining the other two “entities”. Building on top of that extension of the original idea, Jesus would have gained nothing. He went from perfection to pain and back to perfection with no personal gain. Picture it like stopping in the middle of sexual intercourse with your dream women, dieing because it put your friend in a better financial situation, and then coming back to life and resuming intercourse. You gained nothing, and your sex was interrupted, so technically it’s still a sacrifice.
It does make sense when you think about it. I think the Cerberus analogy he used was quite good, actually. It’s also kind of like, well, let’s use an egg. It has three parts – shell, yolk, and the egg white – but it makes up one complete thing.
Actually, a lot of nature can be used as an analogy. Trees have wood, bark, and leaves. Oranges have the peel, the fruit, and the seeds. Etc.
Even humans can be used. We possess body, heart, and mind. These three serve to make up the whole being.
I think the point Daniel was trying to make about sacrifice is that if Jesus fully knew the aftermath of his “death,” that is he will not actually die, then it can’t be considered a pure sacrifice. Because the point is he was supposed to sacrifice his life for humanity. However, if he knew that his life won’t end and that he’ll continue to go on living then it’s like saying that you’re willing to give up this amazing ticket to the Superbowl for another person. You’re willing to sacrifice it for the good of whoever else…oh…and, yeah, you actually had two tickets..
Now in comparison to the other examples Daniel made of regular people dying for causes they believe in without knowing whether they’ll be given another chance to live again.. Jesus’s sacrifice can’t really compare. He is not any more special than these people.
- It’s a sacrifice in that He didn’t have to die. Rather, He choose to because He loves us.
- Due to the nature of God, it was His only Son because of His three-foldness; Father, Son, Holy Spirit. The Bible says that God is the same yesterday, today, and forever. Hence, He can never change His nature. Hence, one Son.
- God created the universe for fellowship. He wanted to have creatures that He could know personally and be known by. Death and Hell were our fault. We choose them over fellowship with God. He didn’t create with the sole intention of sending people to Hell.
- The Resurrection was to show that death no longer had to be feared. Jesus died so that our sins could be forgiven. That was what the death was for. He probably could have stayed dead and just gone off to Heaven. The Resurrection was to indicate that He conquered death, not to show ‘Hey, I’m God. It doesn’t matter I died. I can live forever.’
A fireman/woman going into a burning building for a single person is a far greater sacrifice than a man dying for EVERY human being on the planet that has, or will ever have, lived KNOWING that resurrection is around the corner.
So no, it is not a sacrifice worthy of any consideration. Besides, any many whipped within an inch of his life will say all sorts of crazy things including talking to “god” and doling out sob stories about redemption and resurrection.
That no-one witnessed this mind numbing feat of supernaturalism suggests that it is, and always was, a fable. That it occurred in a backwater, illiterate suburb in the Middle East where thousands, if not millions, of people would never have had to chance to hear about the story and thus attain the appropriate knowledge to join Yeshua (Jesus) in heaven also indicates that it is, and always was, a fable.
The bible does not state that Jesus knew he would come back to life. While I agree that saving a specific persons life (as in your example) is a much more tangible sacrifice, it does not completely invalidate the pain of what dieing on the cross would have been like.
Didn’t Jesus technically commit suicide. He knew he was going to be crucified, and went along with it. Sounds like suicide to me.
If he knew in advance that he would die, why did he allegedly say “My father, why hast thou forsaken me?”? I think his real purpose was to preach peace and love. Of course, there’s a good chance he never existed anyway and someone dreamed up the peace and love thing after he died and made up the story of the resurrection. Which is fairly interesting that the peace and love sentiment was even talked about in that barbarous age. The whole story is full of holes, and anyone who believes is has to ignore a lot of contradictions.
The Bible never contradicts. You have to read in context.
Its really sad that bunch people with ulterior motives going (further) astray by quabling over the lies introduced by a wicked man (read paul) into one of the true religions of God. i.e. Christianity. Jesus (Peace be upon him) shall return to put an end to all the lies & expose the adulteration that pauly has put into the Then beautiful book of GoD. i.e. Bible i.e.
Please don’t mislead the palpable mind of other people & move them away from the religion.
Get your facts right. Read the Quran, possibly with added commentary (Ibn Kathir ) to clear up the fuss, mis-information and out right lies.
Yes we all have free will to accept the truth or deny it. But remember due to this very free will we shall be judged on the choices we make.
DUDE! I said this just the other day! Someone said God sacrificed his ONLY begotten Son (don’t even get me started on that…). Yet, his son came *from heaven where he existed for 14 billion years or whenever they think that started, and was *returned there…. he was more like boomerang college kid. Which makes me wonder, if god put our souls into those fertilized eggs, where were before that? I mean is there a factory in Korea that makes souls… hmmm maybe….
Thank you Thank you Thank you! lol. I do not know why I didn’t see this for myself. I guess I was still trying to get past the whole Trinity Mess in itself but this is a much better question.
Jesus’ death can be regarded as a sacrifice because he died so that we could go to Heaven didn’t he.
He’s not dead, is he?
good point trolin’ Overlord
Vaughan Jones that is very offensive to any Christians who have read this you might as well just say ‘I hate all Christians’. You must remember that some people believe this to be true.
I think that Jesus death is a sacrifice.
My friend Robert would say absolutely it is true cause he is so christian.
Jesus’ death is definitely a sacrifice
Jesus knew he was making a sacrifice.
He knew he was making a sacrifice at the time
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