Grammar Rage

I’m with Pirillo to a lesser or greater extent. I wish people could spell, use punctuation properly, and have a healthy dose of grammar. because without it we fall quickly towards TXT/SMS-speak.

Without grammar the following is meaningless:

“James while John had had had had had had had had had had had a better effect on the teacher”

I recognise it is an extreme example but grammar invokes meaning and without meaning writing is pointless.

“Buffalo buffalo Buffalo buffalo buffalo buffalo Buffalo buffalo.”

I mostly just go the “being a dick” route. I accept some chiding for my dickishness in return for chiding them, but nobody seems to get too offended.

I mostly just go the “being a dick” route. I accept some chiding for my dickishness in return for chiding them, but nobody seems to get too offended.

It’s almost guaranteed that none of us knows all, or most, rules of grammar. So, where’s the threshold? What rules are ok to not know? English has a lot of obscure or complex rules that we all “break.” Sentences can easily end in prepositions, and “they” is the gender neutral pronoun (no need for all this he/she bullshit). Your English teachers are often wrong about what they teach you.

The Turing test will be passed by a computer that can comprehend and generate seemingly flawed grammar. Like a human.

I’ve never met Chris but he appears to be a snob.

My personal pet peeve is when people write “your welcome” instead of “you’re welcome”.

I’ve never met Chris but he appears to be a snob.

My personal pet peeve is when people write “your welcome” instead of “you’re welcome”.

My own response was to cancel my subscription to the local (small town) newspaper several years back as soon as the long run of Calvin and Hobbes ended. I could no longer take the sheer volume of errors in spelling and grammar.

I agree with Jason that we all make mistakes, but he SEEMS to imply that this means that we shouldn’t bother to strive for correct usage. I’m pretty sure that he isn’t really saying this. I suspect that he’s saying that usage evolves and we shouldn’t be too hung up on decades-old rules and should be more concerned with whether communication is being impacted.

I would like to think that educated people can use “its” and “it’s” properly, but it’s the misuse of “your” and “you’re” that I find particularly cringe inducing. Then too, the misuse of “to”, “too”, and “two” is far too frequent to calmly ignore (pardon my split infinitive – something that has become more acceptable since the dawn of Star Trek) without hesitating a moment or two. What can one say about the grammatically challenged but that they’re likely to place their there where they meant to put their their — and to be honest — it does drive me crazy. (There there, Carl, calm down.)

Perhaps the solution is to point them to a link like this one: http://englishplus.com/grammar/mistcont.htm

“He SEEMS to imply that this means that we shouldn’t bother to strive for correct usage.”

In a way, yeah. Language is arbitrary, and trying to know and use every rule is extremely difficult. But I’m probably making more of a linguistics argument than an English grammar argument. It’s key to realize that English is a liberal art, and linguistics is a science.

I scored a four or five on the Regent’s Exam at GSW, and I did it in two or three paragraphs (sorry–it’s been awhile and I’m honestly fuzzy on the details). I did it by breaking rules. Incomplete sentences. Leaving out commas for aesthetic reasons. The rules are malleable, but it’s the difference between making a new shape and just ruining your raw materials.

Ugh. Too many thoughts on this.

Carl: It’s a question of precision or threshold. What rules are acceptable to not know? Why say that some are important and others aren’t?

Y’all. I love this word–it’s useful. Let people from elsewhere in the country knock it all they want. The truth is that some form of it exists in every region. However, this word is my peeve. Southerner’s love it, but can’t spell it worth a damn. I’m tired of seeing “ya’ll” written on signs throughout the South. If you’re going to be proud of it, at least learn where to put the damned apostrophe.

Ugh. Too many thoughts on this.

Carl: It’s a question of precision or threshold. What rules are acceptable to not know? Why say that some are important and others aren’t?

Y’all. I love this word–it’s useful. Let people from elsewhere in the country knock it all they want. The truth is that some form of it exists in every region. However, this word is my peeve. Southerner’s love it, but can’t spell it worth a damn. I’m tired of seeing “ya’ll” written on signs throughout the South. If you’re going to be proud of it, at least learn where to put the damned apostrophe.

Dave is right–Chris is too much of a snob. I think that instead we should try and be an example and educate others politely about it. Some people will be open and willing to learn, while others will not. I don’t think that Chris’ attitude helps anyone.

I only get upset when people know it’s incorrect, but continue to do so because they think it’s funny or because they just don’t feel like it.

Jason: You’d understand a little better if you had ever READ things like the Regents’ (cough cough) Exams. I’ve never been a grader for those exams, but I’ve heard horror stories from those that have and I’ve read plenty of atrocious writing in my own (math) classes.

You claim that you passed the exam BY breaking rules. This may or may not be true. The threshold for passing is pretty low. You may have passed in spite of the rules you broke. In any case, if you were trying to creatively break some rules for aesthetic reasons, the point is that you KNEW that you were breaking the rules, and you (no doubt) did it in such a way that you did not harm communication.

You ask “what rules are acceptable to not know?” I’d say that the goal should be to know ALL the rules that apply to any writing that you will use. If you’re engaged in formal writing of some sort, then you should stick to what you know is correct – and if you want to explore something new and aren’t sure of the rules, you should look them up. I’m much more forgiving in informal writing (which should NOT include things like newspaper columns [except where an informal style is expected] or corporate memos). The attitude that you seem to imply (which again, I don’t think is really what you mean) – that because there are SOME rules that are so obscure that one can’t be expected to know them, then it follows that NO rules are important to know – too frequently leads to writing that is unintelligible. Seriously, some of the writing I’ve seen makes worrying about the specific examples that we’ve all brought up seem silly.

That said, y’all (spelled correctly) is a perfectly good plural version of you. And, since we don’t use “thou” as the singular any more, a plural version of the word can be useful. I grew up just outside of Chicago and “you guys” (or even “you all”) is the plural there. I must admit though that I’ve never come to like y’all’s … as in: How do you get to y’all’s house? I’m not even sure how that should be spelled: y’all’s … y’alls ??

Daniel: Can you ever predict which of your posts will generate the most replies?

Jason: You’d understand a little better if you had ever READ things like the Regents’ (cough cough) Exams. I’ve never been a grader for those exams, but I’ve heard horror stories from those that have and I’ve read plenty of atrocious writing in my own (math) classes.

You claim that you passed the exam BY breaking rules. This may or may not be true. The threshold for passing is pretty low. You may have passed in spite of the rules you broke. In any case, if you were trying to creatively break some rules for aesthetic reasons, the point is that you KNEW that you were breaking the rules, and you (no doubt) did it in such a way that you did not harm communication.

You ask “what rules are acceptable to not know?” I’d say that the goal should be to know ALL the rules that apply to any writing that you will use. If you’re engaged in formal writing of some sort, then you should stick to what you know is correct – and if you want to explore something new and aren’t sure of the rules, you should look them up. I’m much more forgiving in informal writing (which should NOT include things like newspaper columns [except where an informal style is expected] or corporate memos). The attitude that you seem to imply (which again, I don’t think is really what you mean) – that because there are SOME rules that are so obscure that one can’t be expected to know them, then it follows that NO rules are important to know – too frequently leads to writing that is unintelligible. Seriously, some of the writing I’ve seen makes worrying about the specific examples that we’ve all brought up seem silly.

That said, y’all (spelled correctly) is a perfectly good plural version of you. And, since we don’t use “thou” as the singular any more, a plural version of the word can be useful. I grew up just outside of Chicago and “you guys” (or even “you all”) is the plural there. I must admit though that I’ve never come to like y’all’s … as in: How do you get to y’all’s house? I’m not even sure how that should be spelled: y’all’s … y’alls ??

Daniel: Can you ever predict which of your posts will generate the most replies?

“You claim that you passed the exam BY breaking rules.”

I believe breaking the rules got me a higher-than-passing score.

“I’d say that the goal should be to know ALL the rules that apply to any writing that you will use.”

This, from the math professor, of course. ;)

I’m all for writing better, though, and I think it’s probably the single most important skill a person can develop. Writing for others, and one’s self, is an amazing way to develop or communicate knowledge on any subject. People need to construct knowledge for themselves. Writing, having to cultivate and express an idea, is the ultimate raw material for constructing knowledge.

“I believe breaking the rules got me a higher-than-passing score.”

Perhaps, but it may be that your score would have been exactly the same had you followed the rules that you knowingly broke.

“This, from the math professor, of course. ;)”

:) At least I only said that it should be the GOAL.

“I’m all for writing better, though, and I think it’s probably the single most important skill a person can develop.”

I agree (and I’m a MATH professor). :)

Pirillo is an idiot. It is no different than saying, “If you wear white shoes after labor day, don’t ever come near me.” He is focusing on the presentation, and not the substance. Punctuation and grammar is simply a way for formalizing rules in professional communication. If one is writing a formal memo to be distributed within a company, or publicly, or whatever, then these things are very important. Outside of that, it doesn’t really matter, and people who get their panties in a wad about it need to get a life.

Pirillo is an idiot. It is no different than saying, “If you wear white shoes after labor day, don’t ever come near me.” He is focusing on the presentation, and not the substance. Punctuation and grammar is simply a way for formalizing rules in professional communication. If one is writing a formal memo to be distributed within a company, or publicly, or whatever, then these things are very important. Outside of that, it doesn’t really matter, and people who get their panties in a wad about it need to get a life.

Maxo,

Chris was exaggerating his response; he wasn’t totally serious. He’s a pretty cool guy, actually.

Nothing positive is ever accomplished by the belittlement of others.

Words that succeed in convoying an idea have satisfied their sole purpose, lack of apostrophes not withstanding.

The wise reach a plateau of skill and look up at what they have left to maintain; the meek look down at what they have accomplished and derive smugness.

“Words that succeed in convoying an idea have satisfied their sole purpose, lack of apostrophes not withstanding.”

Mistakes can help the writer convey even MORE than the original idea. They can indicate that the writer is not fluent or can indicate that the writer is ignorant of spelling or rules of grammar. Additionally, they can make communication less efficient as the reader is forced to read beyond what is written in an attempt to decipher what was intended.

I don’t claim that we all should fret constantly about perfecting our writing, but I DO claim that good writing should be a goal (and ought to be the STANDARD).

“Words that succeed in convoying an idea have satisfied their sole purpose, lack of apostrophes not withstanding.”

Mistakes can help the writer convey even MORE than the original idea. They can indicate that the writer is not fluent or can indicate that the writer is ignorant of spelling or rules of grammar. Additionally, they can make communication less efficient as the reader is forced to read beyond what is written in an attempt to decipher what was intended.

I don’t claim that we all should fret constantly about perfecting our writing, but I DO claim that good writing should be a goal (and ought to be the STANDARD).