Free Will vs. Determinism as the Core of Political Disagreement

By Daniel Miessler on September 8th, 2009: Tagged as Morality | Politics | Religion
  • cooperati
    This sticks out.

    '"Atheism –> Determinism –> Compassion for the Weak'
    vs.
    'Religion –> God-granted Free Will –> Personal Responsibility for Failure –> Apathy (or disdain) from the Strong'"

    If this were the case, I should expect an easy answer with plenty of examples to the question, "Where are all the atheist charities?"

    Also, from this quote:

    "Most nations characterized by high degrees of individual and societal security have the highest rates of organic atheism, and conversely, nations characterized by low degrees of individual and societal security have the lowest rates of organic atheism."

    I deduce that societies advanced enough to maintain competent forms of tolerance for minority groups are tolerant enough to allow atheism to flourish, though it still maintains a minority status. At least, better than in third world countries, if that's what you are judging by.


    And, lastly, for now;

    "A belief in determinism, on the other hand, is tied to compassion, and it makes sense. Those who believe that the Big Bang happened, and that we all ended up here–some of us doing well, and others suffering–leads to the creation of public policy built upon communal happiness and suffering. And this sort of “it just happened this way” approach relies specifically on the lack of belief in supernatural free will."

    Seems to be a feel good reach, like Stuart Smalley, y'know, "I'm Good Enough, I'm Smart Enough, and Doggone It, People Like Me!: Daily Affirmations With Stuart Smalley." Only, here's an impossibly related reason why: because atheism makes me compassionate, and denying free will is the method by which this happens.

    Communal happiness is a civic duty, laid down very well implied in the social contract we all live under as neighborly as we feel comfortable getting. "You watch my back, I'll watch yours", sort of thing.

    Overall, I'm impressed with your evolution along this train of thought. One thing you might want to worry about is becoming too isolated and insular concerning what you want to believe, versus what information comes to you that you haven't sought out in affirmations of your hypothesis. What I mean to say is that you seem to value what you seek to enhance your beliefs MORE than any other information. Maybe be a little more adventurous, and question your views a little more, if not to destroy them, to let them stand victorious and tall after each battle. And each battle is all the prize your can savor, as the war of ideas is never won.

    Perhaps then you can examine the charities of religion, versus this inherent destructive natures all humans encompass.

    Good luck in following this to a conclusion. I want you to find one both useful, and, moreover, true.

    -=T=-
  • This is why Schopenhauer's comments were apt:

    Do people reach their circumstances in life arbitrarily, or do their abilities define where they are?

    The "free will" argument -- not taken seriously by any philosopher -- has nothing to do with it. The question is one of cause and effect.
  • Not taken seriously by any philosopher? Really?
  • A philosopher.
    You're clearly moved enough to write reasonably long posts on this issue, and put them all on reddit, so why don't you read some actual discussion of these issues by academic philosophers? You previous posts on Free Will were at best naive (you completely miss out compatibilist positions, for example), and make very big leaps without argument.

    Here, you're saying (a) that a belief in no free will supports compasion based morality, and (b) belief in free will supports personal responsbility based morality. You're also saying that as a matter of empirical fact these beliefs correlate amongst the population.

    (a) is really not obvious. You don't say anything to really support this. A believe in free will seems perfectly consistent with a compassion based morality. (b) would require extensive sociological surveys.

    Why not start with the Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy pages on both Free Will, Determinism, and Compatabilism. You might also want to look at 'Frankfurt Cases':

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frankfurt_countere...
  • I have read a decent amount in the last few weeks on determinism, compatibilism and incompatibilism. My reading did include the Stanford resources on the topics, which I found quite good. I wouldn't claim to be an expert on the topics of course, but I think I get the main arguments.

    I have simply yet to find any compatibilist arguments compelling.

    I do agree that this argument was poorly constructed. I got anxious toward the end and didn't put the right amount of work into backing my claims. I shall try to do better on my next attempt.
  • CarlM
    Still only a few minutes to respond, but there are some points you made that need a quick response.
    -----
    I have a hard time believing that you actually believe that "the belief in free will leads to a lack of compassion for those who suffer." You seem careful to distinguish between "supernatural" free will and (presumably) "natural" free will in how you phrase some of your argument, but it's not clear what different things your argument says about people who simply believe that there is free will (with no religious overtones).

    I would be surprised if belief in free will was significantly lower in the countries you talk about here: "Evidence of this can be seen in less poverty, higher education rates, and overall higher standards of living in countries that embrace this philosophy." As I've already said, atheism does not imply the lack of belief in free will. As Maxo has pointed out, religious belief does not imply the belief in free will or the lack of belief in predeterminism.

    Daniel, I know that you want to avoid the labels "liberal" and "conservative" because they are laden with baggage and in any case don't capture the full depth of individuals who exist along a full multi-dimensional spectrum of political ideology, but you seem overeager to replace them with the labels "religious" and "nonreligious" which carry at least as much baggage and are equally flawed in capturing the essence of the person being labeled.
  • I agree with your criticisms here. I'll have to work on this in my
    argument.
  • CarlM
    I should be explicit about something else while I'm here. I have agreed with your long-standing premise that the use of labels like liberal and conservative is not helpful, but it may be that you and I don't have the same reasons for wanting to avoid those labels. My reason for wanting to avoid labels in general is what I just expressed above: labels are typically laden with baggage and in any case don't capture the full depth of individuals who exist along a full multi-dimensional spectrum of political ideology, religious belief, etc. The point is (from my point of view) is that it's generally wrong to imply that for any given characteristic there are only two types of people: those WITH the characteristic and those WITHOUT it. When we use label pairs like liberals/conservatives, religious/nonreligious, thoughtful/impulsive, we imply (whether we mean to or not) that everyone is described well by one or the other label in each pair. In fact people don't fit so neatly into the boxes created by the labels.

    So, when you assert that there are (only) two fundamental political belief systems (regardless of how you define them) you are doing exactly the same thing as those who assert that there are (only) two fundamental political belief systems (liberal/conservative). There are some people (my understanding is that Rush is one) who don't believe that there is such a thing as a moderate. They are wrong.
  • "Religion teaches that God gave each of us the ability to make the right choices regardless of negative circumstances."
    Religion doesn't teach us anything specifically. This statement is equally as logical as "Theories teach us aliens exist." There are different religions that teach different things, just like there are different theories that teach us different things.
    What you probably meant was "Christianity teaches that God gave each of us the ability to make the right choices regardless of negative circumstances." However, there is a big debate amongst Christian theologians. Some, including the Catholic Church, believe in free will. On the other hand, others believe in predestination.
    You are really digging yourself deep here by making grossly large extrapolations. You have taken the fact that many Christian denominations believe in free will, exploded that to all of Christianity believes in free will, and then stepped way over bounds to apply it to all religions in the world.
    You have then gone further by equating the belief in free will to the demonstrably false belief in the clean slate theory, which has absolutely no correlation.
    You write many good articles supporting your ideas on atheism, but this one falls flat on its face.
  • "The religious character of predestination distinguishes it from other ideas about determinism and free will. Those who believe in predestination, such as John Calvin, believe that before the creation God determined the fate of the universe throughout all of time and space." - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Predestination
    The Wikipedia article even spells it out as if it was written to dispute your claims here.
  • CarlM
    I don't have time to reply in full at the moment, but I think you're trying too hard to tie all your pet beliefs into a single unified theory.

    A quick point:

    Most people believe in free will - including most of those who are quite compassionate toward others. Further, you've implied that atheism somehow implies a belief in determinism (from a physics point of view I mean). I don't see how that follows at all. The fact that atheism implies a belief that God didn't create free will doesn't mean that atheism implies that there is no free will (just as the fact that atheism implies a belief that God didn't create people doesn't mean that atheism implies that there are no people).

    Your overall argument has some merit, but why cloud it with science that doesn't particularly apply? A belief in free will is not incompatible with the understanding that those born into poverty, violent neighborhoods, etc. have a harder time flourishing.
  • I concur. Few people ever think about Free Will Vs. Determinism at all. Most people assume free will exists because it is how reality is presented to us and processed by our brains naturally.
    I think you are trying to shove a nonagon through a round hole. The belief in free will is not the belief that we are all born with a "clean slate" and our destiny is built upon what we draw on that clean slate. The belief in determinism is not the belief that we are all born with different deficiencies and strengths. You cannot equate these two things without being dishonest to your audience about their definitions.
    Free will and determinism both remain theories about the function of our universe. On the other hand it is a hard fact that the "clean slate" does not exist. This truth is as solid as the spherical shape of our planet, or the existence of the sun.
    There is no correlation between the belief in the free will theory and the belief in the "clean slate" theory.
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