• Shenpen
    I think the problem is that you are trying to turn a philosophical problem into a problem of natural science, which is in itself not a wrong idea, but then trying to import the result back into philosophy and this is what wrong is.

    It's OK to say that withing the realm, within the point of view of natural sciences, everything we are is a material process, because these are the processes natural science is able to investigate. Thus, indeed, natural science must indeed delegate the problem back to philosophy, from the natural science point of view, it's super-natural i.e. outside the scope of natural sciences. Thus, the natural scientist must not assume it exists, neither that it doesn't exist, but must simply say it's not in his field of study, he will assume neither but simply go on studying all those 100000000000 interesting things he is well equipped to study. There is no such thing as a burden of proof within the scope of natural sciences in the question of free will once we agree that it's something that's by DEFINITION outside the material realms and therefore natural science shouldn't even bother about it. It's exactly the same problem as the existence of a god or reincarnation or afterlife or anything: plain simply not in the field of natural sciences, neither a positive, nor a negative assumption, nor any kind of burden of proof exists, rather it's simply off the table. It's like when the physicist is asked to translate Shakespeare to Chinese: he would say it's not his job, leave him alone with it. This is the correct approach.

    Thus, the natural science must delegate the problem back to philosophy. But in philosophy why on Earth would anything "super-natural" i.e. anything outside the scope of natural sciences automatically require a direct proof or be considered bullshit? From the viewpoint of philosophy the whole field of natural sciences is one of applied philosophy, largely the philosophy of empiricism. If empiricism is not suitable for investigating a problem, the philosopher shouldn't worry much, there are thousand and one other philosophical ways to approach such problems, from Platonic realism through Cartesian principles to social constructionism etc. etc. etc.
  • Very interesting point--this discussion of what realm this belongs in. I'll
    have to think about this more and address it later, as I'm at work now.
  • CarlM
    In my exhaustion upon returning to the hotel last night after a long day at a family reunion, I overstated something and left out a couple of things I meant to say.

    First of all, it's probably more accurate to say that I neither believe nor disbelieve in free will as you define it, Daniel. I think that the jury is still out, but if I had to pick a side I would say that free will probably exists. I'm comfortable with this ignorance. Anyway, I wanted to clarify this since I overstated my position in the response last night.

    Next, when pointing out that you've made good arguments against free will (the standard arguments .. well delivered) I meant to point out that you failed to point out some additional weaknesses in my arguments. If there is any randomness in the world, then the chain of causality need not go back to the origin of the universe (think butterfly effect). Also, for essentially the same reason, the future need not be predictable (even in theory) for a very long period.

    Finally, I want to return to my earlier comments about semantics. I think that this is largely a semantic argument. I would agree with you that OF COURSE we are products of our past and that our decisions are products of our history. I'm not convinced that this (alone) precludes some sort of freedom on our choices.
  • CarlM
    Oh, and one other thing. I wouldn't use a survey in an effort to get at the "truth" in a scientific argument. A survey can only gauge the degree to which a theory has wide acceptance - and can only give THAT information if it is a well designed and carefully carried out survey.
  • Agreed.
  • So here's some peripheral evidence for Carl, Cooperati's, and David's position. This shows that most scientists (in this sample) *do* believe in free will.

    http://www.americanscientist.org/issues/id.3747...

    <grumble>
  • CarlM
    I have designed a new experiment. Count the total number of runs scored (by both teams) in the first Chicago Cubs game in the 2010 Major League Baseball season. If the number is EVEN, raise your right hand over your head. If it us ODD, raise your left hand over your head.

    To get results more quickly, we'll use the Cubs-Cardinals game later today as a preliminary experiment. I will actually carry out this experiment, and I hope you will too.

    I believe that the total number of runs in a baseball game is fairly unpredictable (maybe there are more odd totals or more even totals, I've no idea, but it's irrelevant). If you carry out this experiment, I predict that you will find yourself able to raise the hand designated by the conditions of the experiment. In fact, I think you could use a random number gererator (one hooked up to a Geiger counter to get a truly random number (if the random fluctuations of quantum mechanics are real)) and STILL be able to raise the designated hand.

    So, either your muscles are somehow forced by a deterministic universe to raise the correct hand in conjunction with whether an unpredictable count is even or odd OR free will exists. I would suggest that Occam's Razor points to free will. (I would not suggest that Occam's Razor always points to the right answer.)
  • Wow, we seriously disagree here. As you have pointed out, you have a degree in physics, and I do not. I'll also point out for the record, since you're too humble to mention it, that you also have a doctorate in mathematics. So I'm going to be very careful how I say this: I think you're completely wrong about this. If, however, I was a betting person, I would wager that I was wrong, and not you, given our respective educations in this field.

    That being said, let me proceed with my argument as planned:

    You designed an experiment in much the same way as your previous example of the machine that can monitor a production line for certain conditions and then make a change to how it runs the line based on what it sees. You gave both this and this baseball scenario as evidence of something like free will (or at least you said that it would lead Occam in that direction).

    I say no. I say absolutely not.

    Let's look at your variables:

    * This thread is input to our bodies, i.e. knowing the experiment
    * The outcome of the baseball game is input to our bodies, i.e. we calculate the score and lift the appropriate hand (based on the bounds of the experiment mentioned in the thread)

    Now, I ask you, what part of either the processing of this thread, or the outcome of the baseball game do you not think is part of physics as we know it today?

    In other words, here's how I see this working. Reading this thread becomes a physical variable that will go into the outcome (hand raising). The score of the game will become a physical variable that goes into the outcome (hand raising).

    So, at the moment when you raise your hand you will have already been affected by the physical universe. No part of this experiment resides outside of the inputs you were given. So, determinism or randomness--doesn't matter. Mabye that affected precisely when or how you raised your arm, but the point is there was input and there was output, and those inputs determined the outputs.

    So, show me you raising your arm in precisely this way WITHOUT reading this thread and knowing the bounds of the experiments and then we'll see some free will.

    But at this point I'm thinking we need some objective help, as you don't seem to see what I'm saying. And since the odds are, based on your education, that I'm the one missing something, I suggest we ask some physicists. What do you say? How about we show them this thread and see who's position, if anyone's, they agree more with?
  • CarlM
    You are welcome to conduct any poll you wish. I think that there is a
    lot of evidence that there are physicists on both sides of the free
    will issue (I have no idea what proportion is on each side and I doubt
    that any survey we conducted would tell us those numbers).

    I think I need to say something again. I DO NOT think that free will
    requires anything outside of physics (even the physics we know
    today). But you missed the point of the experiment (even though I was
    explicit in my follow up). The creation of the experiment is evidence
    of free will.

    You claim that there is no free will. Then I had no choice but to
    design the experiment (because of the direction of this discussion
    which exists because of an earlier thread because of ... because of
    the initial conditions of the universe). My statement of the "rules"
    of the experiment become input into our machines. Now when we raise
    our hands we could be automata, but HOW do the machines (our bodies)
    turn an observation (the total number of runs) into an action (one or
    the other hand going up)? Isn't this a part of what you say can't
    happen? If you CAN turn an observation into an action, then why can't
    you turn a thought into an action? (They seem pretty similar to
    me ... I can make up a score - 7 to 5 - note that the total is even
    and raise the appropriate hand ... I haven't raised the hand yet ...
    My knowledge of the total is not only in my consciousind, but i've
    documented it here ... I'll raise the appropriate hand after I re-read
    which hand us for an even total).

    If you CAN'T turn an observation onto an action, then the action must
    also have been inherent in the universe before this discussion
    started. I am skeptical of this.
  • I agree that most polling would be ineffective, except here's one that I consider pretty good that supports your position:

    http://www.americanscientist.org/issues/id.3747...

    "Now when we raise
    our hands we could be automata, but HOW do the machines (our bodies) turn an observation (the total number of runs) into an action (one or the other hand going up)? Isn't this a part of what you say can't happen? If you CAN turn an observation into an action, then why can't you turn a thought into an action?."

    Imagine a laser sensor that sits perpendicular to a train track, so that when a train drives by it breaks the laser and re-routes the track 1000 feet ahead.

    Train comes. Laser breaks. The track gets moved. The train takes another path. This is observation leading to an action. I would agree with you that thought is just the same. Yes, thought can lead to action--absolutely.

    But a thought is nothing more than an event--an event with a cause. And no, in my model you did NOT have a choice to design this experiment, as there were physical causes to every variable that lead to you designing it. That's precisely my point.

    I still feel you are attempting to break the causal relationship between input leading to a thought, leading to an idea, you voicing the idea, me reading it, us taking action, etc. This is all linear and physical. And just because it feeds off itself, and leads to increasingly more complex interaction based on the output of input of output as input...does nothing to change the fact that x cause x+1 caused x+2.

    Let me as you this: where do you think your idea for your experiment came from? Or, more to the point, in what sense do you think it was "free"?
  • CarlM
    Question: What experiment can you design that would DISPROVE your
    hypothesis that free will doesn't exist?

    I ask because if there isn't one, then it seems to me that your
    position is outside the realm of science (and perhaps lies entirely in
    the realm of philosophy).
  • CarlM
    Hmmm... So, you concede that you can have a conscious thought and
    THEN carry out an action based on that thought. For example, if you
    were hooked up to an FMRI and asked to raise either your right hand or
    your left hand (your choice), you could make a CONSCIOUS choice and
    then raise that hand. You're agreeing now that this is possible?
    Then what are these experiments that supposedly give evidence against
    free will?

    Maybe I'm misrembering the results (because I could think of so many
    follow-up experiments I'd want to do that I was entirely unconvinced
    that they disproved free will). Remind me what it is that the
    experiments show that argues against free will.

    It seems (if I am remembering them correctly) that you've abandoned
    those experiments and are instead arguing from a strictly
    deterministic perspective. You're making all the right arguments from
    that perspective, and (though you've taken a couple of tangents)
    you've correctly pointed out several weaknesses in my argument (at
    least in a deterministic world). For the record, I DO understand all
    the points you've been making. They're not slipping by me. I simply
    don't find them entirely convincing, but as I'm pretty sure I've
    already said, I wouldn't be entirely surprised if free will proves to
    be an illusion. My point has been that you can't so easily dismiss
    the evidence in favor of free will and assert that the burden is on
    those who believe that it exists. We just don't know for certain one
    way or the other, and until we are, I'm OK with being unsure. As it
    stands, I believe that free will exists and you don't. I'm OK with us
    having different beliefs on this (just don't get evengelical). By the
    way, I'm still waiting to hear what you believe about consciousness.
  • CarlM
    Another way to think of that experiment is that either the experiment was forced on the universe by it's initial conditions OR I was able to invent it. I have a difficult time believing that for billions of years that experiment was destined to be AND that the RESULTS of the experiment were also destined to be precisely what they need to be to support an illusion of free will. THAT would almost convince me that there is a prankster deity lurking about.
  • DD
    I think there's an important illustration to be made:

    Subatomic > Atomic > Molecular > Micro > Macro

    All of these are observational reference points. We live in the macro world; the macro world is what emerges from the micro, which in turn is emergent from the molecular, which in turn emerged from the atomic, and the subatomic. It is a one-way street. The macro does not affect the micro - the macro IS the micro in great abundance, viewed from a distance.
  • CarlM
    Here's a link to a post by someone who seems to take Daniel's perspective, but does NOT refrain from saying that free will exists. It's semantics.

    http://tonylinde.wordpress.com/2009/05/16/free-...
  • For the record, and as we discussed offline, this guy actually agrees almost perfectly with my position:

    http://tonylinde.wordpress.com/2009/05/16/free-...

    Final quote:

    "Basically, if we exclude the supernatural, there is no place for free will."
  • CarlM
    Phew! Where to begin?

    Daniel, you’ve accused me of asserting something that I absolutely did not assert. I’m reluctant to write a lengthy reply because you tend to miss my main point when I do so. Even when I write a brief reply with a direct question, you sometimes (like in this thread) don’t answer the question I asked. Still, I have too much to say to fit into a brief reply, so I will simply break this reply into sections. (This is abnormally long even for me.)

    I: Consciousness

    “Consciousness is a mystery, but I've not seen many serious scientists making the claim that it's supernatural.” It’s every bit as much a mystery as free will (or the illusion of free will), and I maintain that they are inextricably linked. I don’t think if we ever have a full understanding of one, we will have an understanding of both. I do not think that either consciousness OR free will (if it exists) is supernatural.

    II: Claims of the Supernatural and Occam’s razor

    When the ancients believed that eclipses were supernatural, they were wrong. They were constrained by their limited understanding of the universe and used Occam’s razor to conclude that since their understanding of how things worked in the world didn’t explain eclipses, the explanation must lie in the supernatural. It was (for them) the simplest explanation. It was also wrong. From my point of view, you are making the same leap as they did. It is true that our scientific understanding is VAST, but it is also true that our ignorance is also VAST. Don’t think that because we have an incredible depth of understanding of how the universe works then it follows that anything that isn’t covered by that understanding must therefore be supernatural in origin. This was the mistake of the ancients.

    III: Physics

    You seem to think that I have only a passing understanding of physics and physical laws. Though I do not claim any special status for my arguments because of it, I want to point out that I have a college degree in physics. I have more than a passing understanding of physics.

    “Are you saying that physics might someday reveal a way in which humans make decisions outside of physics?”

    No. I’m not. I’m suggesting that physics isn’t complete. Physicists of a century ago would not recognize current physics. You recently posted a YouTube video of Feynman who said that his only goal was to discover more about the universe. He had no illusions of knowledge of what was really there. He only hoped for better and better approximations.

    If our consciousness (a word that seems to have no lack of definitions – I’m using this one: 1. The state of being conscious; knowledge of one's own existence, condition, sensations, mental operations, acts, etc.) exists (and I assert that it is self-evident that it does), and if it has the ability to ACT on things .. to make decisions that result in action .. then I believe that there is a physical explanation for how this occurs. I make NO claim that this action takes place outside of physics. (It was YOU who was making this assertion.)

    Nobody has asserted that randomness in the universe (if it exists .. as it seems to) implies anything more than that the universe is non-deterministic. This alone doesn’t imply that our consciousness (awareness of ourselves and our surroundings) can ACT on the universe. You’re right that these are two different things. However, if the universe if non-deterministic, it DOES follow that it is not a clockwork. (By the way, physicists come down on both sides of the deterministic/non-deterministic fence.)

    “Things either happen according to physics or they don't.”

    I believe that they do.

    “If they do, then nature happens and outcomes follow.”

    Well … “nature” is a pretty all-encompassing word (it would seem to me to include our consciousness for example), and “outcomes follow” is a pretty empty phrase .. unless you mean that they follow like clockwork .. which is incorrect if we live in a non-deterministic universe. I’m not sure what you intend by this sentence.

    “There could be randomness or no randomness--it doesn't matter. Either way there won't be any input from YOU that isn't a part of the physical world.”

    I’ve already responded to the first sentence here (you’re right .. it’s not relevant to the argument at hand). Your second sentence is empty of content. Of course it’s true. I am part of the physical world, so anything that comes from me is part of the physical world. Neither I nor anyone else who has responded in this thread has claimed anything else. I’m not sure who you’re arguing with here.

    “Again, the question is one of needing to explain why physics does not explain physical phenomenon.”

    This seems to be your main point. You seem to think that we are positing an explanation of free will that exists outside of physics. I’m certainly not doing so, and I don’t think that anyone else here has done so either. I am merely humbly suggesting that our knowledge of physics is incomplete and that there may well be a natural mechanism (that is not yet known let alone understood) that allows our brains to sprout consciousness AND to make decisions that result in action in the universe.

    I’ve already covered this, but just to be CLEAR:

    Jack:
    "If the universe is not deterministic then free will is possible, but we still cannot conclude solely on this one variable that we have free will. If there is some sort of spontaneity in the universe, even at the subatomic level, then the universe is not in fact deterministic."

    Daniel:
    “This is what I think you guys are missing. Just because the universe has randomness says NOTHING about *your* personal decision input falling outside the physical world.”

    Daniel, you’re arguing with nobody here. None of us has missed the thing you think we’re missing. If the universe is deterministic, then there’s no such thing as free will (or at least free will would require a supernatural origin). It seems that we all agree with this. However, there is a lot of evidence that the universe is NOT deterministic. This is a game changer. It’s true that the existence of quantum fluctuations and randomness does NOT (by itself) explain free will or even imply that it exists. NOBODY has said that it does. It says NOTHING about it EXCEPT perhaps that the universe is not deterministic. In a non-deterministic universe, a supernatural explanation is not (necessarily) required for free will to exist.

    Please note that this is ALL any of us are claiming. I’ll say it again so you don’t miss it: In a non-deterministic universe, a supernatural explanation is not (necessarily) required for free will to exist.

    “In order for you to have a say in the outcome you must be capable of injecting a variable that exists outside of the physical world.

    Anything less and your "decisions" are simply additional inputs into a purely physical equation (which can contain randomness if you'd like), which will yield an outcome. Hence, either you have a supernatural injection point, or you have no free will.”

    By this reasoning, a computerized production line that takes in hundreds of variables and makes decisions about whether to speed up or slow down or stop the production line can’t possibly actually DO those things without some sort of “supernatural injection point”. Does this mean that a line of computer program that looks like:

    IF errors > MAXERROR THEN cutPower

    Is somehow supernatural? (Call me a skeptic, but I don’t think so.) By the way, I’m not asserting that a computer program is conscious or has free will .. I’m asserting that it can make “decisions” and can take “actions” without any supernatural help.

    IV: Semantics

    I’m pretty sure that this is a semantic argument, but it’s a fun one.
  • Daniel isn't making any claim of the supernatural.

    He was simply trying to point out that the only known way (right now) of logically proposing free will is to invoke the supernatural.

    CarlM:
    "In a non-deterministic universe, a supernatural explanation is not (necessarily) required for free will to exist."

    Sure. But Daniel (and I) are saying that so long as Free Will is a proposition with no greater pull than Fish Will (see above), there is no reason to think it to be true.

    If you propose Free Will to be true, then you propose a host of other trivial theories as well. If you can propose an argument which shows why thinking Free Will is correct but Fish Will is incorrect, I'd love to hear it.
  • CarlM
    “He was simply trying to point out that the only known way (right now) of logically proposing free will is to invoke the supernatural.”

    If all he was saying was that there was no known mechanism by which free will arises, I’d agree. He’s saying more than that.

    “If you can propose an argument which shows why thinking Free Will is correct but Fish Will is incorrect, I'd love to hear it.”

    I’ll grant that there is no evidence whatsoever for Fish Will (none, zip, nada). I will NOT grant that there is an equal lack of evidence for Free Will. You two (simonsarris and Daniel) seem to have a misunderstanding of how science works.

    We gather empirical evidence to learn what happens in the universe and THEN we construct theories to fit that evidence. It doesn’t work the other way around. That is, we don’t form theories and then say “well, this evidence doesn’t contradict existing theories, but I don’t see any mechanism within existing theories that allow for it, so the evidence must be wrong.” I’m not saying that an observation here and there can’t be misleading or faulty or an illusion, but if there is overwhelming observational evidence of something, then to deny it requires justification.

    Here’s an experiment (which I just carried out). Toss a coin. If it comes up heads, raise your right hand over your head. If it comes up tails, raise your left hand over your head. When I did it, the coin came up tails and sure enough, I raised my left hand over my head. You can simplify the experiment if you want by just making a conscious decision to raise either your right or left hand and then doing it, but I thought that introducing the randomization might make it a little more interesting.

    We ALL (even you guys I assume) feel that we can make a decision about which hand to raise and then carry out the action of actually raising the hand. In fact, we all experience free will many times every day. If you claim that this is an illusion, then it is up to you to explain why we must throw out this particular (enormous) batch of empirical evidence.

    When Newton observed that an inverse-square gravitational force would explain a large number of observations, he had no mechanism for how such a force could work (in fact, he was wrong about some details as we learned with Einstein’s theories … which may themselves be only approximations). The fact that there was no accepted mechanism for gravity until Einstein came along doesn’t mean that it would have been appropriate to point to the supernatural.

    In an earlier reply, I asked about consciousness. I think that Daniel missed my point, and it wasn’t until NOW that I understood why. It’s true that consciousness isn’t about ACTING on the universe (as Daniel pointed out) so it’s DIFFERENT than free will. Of course it is. But, my point was that there is no scientific understanding of how consciousness arises. So, by the logic that you two seem to be espousing, we must therefore say that consciousness requires the supernatural. The fact that science doesn’t (yet) have a mechanism by which consciousness arises does NOT imply that any such mechanism must be supernatural. Similarly (you should be able to guess where I’m going with this) the fact that science doesn’t (yet) have a mechanism by which free will arises does NOT imply that any such mechanism must be supernatural.

    IF we eventually reach the conclusion that the universe is deterministic, then it has been shown that free will can’t exist. We haven’t reached that conclusion. So, if you suggest that the empirical evidence for free will that all of us experience every day is all illusion, then it is upon YOU to demonstrate that.

    Here’s an example of an illusion: When the sun (or moon) is close to the horizon, it appears larger in diameter than when it is overhead. It is easy to demonstrate that this is an illusion (extend your arm at full length and point one finger upwards – compare the size of the sun (moon) to your finger when it is overhead and when it is at the horizon - the size doesn’t change). I’m well aware that there are illusions that fool our senses, but science is BASED on empirical evidence. We have plenty of empirical evidence that indicates that free will exists. That evidence needs to be explained. EITHER it is an illusion or it isn’t. Assuming that empirical evidence is an illusion is NOT the default position in science.

    Daniel, it wasn’t so long ago that no specific mechanism was known for the evolution of the eye. People could wave their hands, but Creationists could say “there’s no way that such a thing could exist without being designed .. it MUST have a supernatural origin.” A question for you, Daniel: Given that no mechanism was known at the time for the evolution of the eye, were the Creationists right to assert that it had a supernatural origin?
  • cooperati
    "So, by the logic that you two seem to be espousing, we must therefore say that consciousness requires the supernatural."

    Or it doesn't exist. And, since no supernatural source exists, consciousness doesn't exist.

    This is like proving that Bugs Bunny isn't real because he can only be made by a magic lemon from Mars named Kjarhl. Since Kjarhl doesn't exist, nothing he is supposed to have made exists. Hence, Bugs isn't real. ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bugs_Bunny )

    By making an impossible supposition about the existence of something, it can only be defined as unreal.

    What Daniel's doing is part semantics, but part pathology/ideology/philosophy.

    He does the same thing with religion and the Bible. In fact, religionists do the opposite. I believe Daniel has said that God exists only if it can be scientifically observed. And religionists will eventually respond that properties of God defy scientific observation.

    I think this is where you come in, Carl. Scientific observation isn't complete, but it's the best verification we have so far. Still, what I believe Carl is saying is that science hasn't YET found evidence to prove or disprove free will, beyond simple experimentation.

    Then it's also possible that what free will we have is simply a range of independent motivation governed by limitations imposed by our biology and environment. To some, ANY limitation means that free will isn't an absolute, but a simulation, an illusion. Then again, without any limitations, we would be gods ourselves, able to will anything we want. So, by those impossible standards, we are either gods with absolute free will, or we're humans with simulated free will.

    Again, by imposing impossible suppositions, we can redefine anything to not be what it already been commonly established as by the rest of the population.

    -=T=-
  • CarlM
    I was wondering when you'd rejoin the conversation. :-)

    "Or it doesn't exist. And, since no supernatural source exists, consciousness doesn't exist." Right ... I was going to see if Daniel come to that conclusion, and I'm still curious about when one of these arguments is going to make a true skeptic of him. :-)

    "When we go to investigate her [nature] we shouldn't predecide what it is we're trying to do except to find out more about it."

    From: http://danielmiessler.com/blog/feynman-on-doubt... at 0:58.
  • cooperati
    As you might have guessed, I rather enjoy reading your responses. I take them as both practiced and educated versions of my own. Hence, not only am I pleasantly humbled, but I also accept the redundancy of repeating your sentiments in my own more primitive terms.

    Daniel's postings have also improved with practice, I must include. This one is by far the most evolved that I can recall, concerning non-technical matters.

    -=T=-
  • cooperati
    "I was wondering when you'd rejoin the conversation. :-)"

    I was temporarily hesitant for the seeming futility of the conversation.

    "I was going to see if Daniel come to that conclusion..."

    This might be an occasion where one is only in the proponent mode. (In part, I wonder if he completely believes that all parts of the physical universe cannot include any supernatural, or metaphysical, sources.) For the sake of the discussion, he may be purely avoiding any concession to the contrary of his hypothesis. Because of this, perhaps no one can be convinced by superior logic.

    When I mentioned that he also does this with religion and other subjects, I say that I am familiar with the tone and CONDITIONS of this particular discourse.

    I commented this morning purely because I have the time to do it, and something original to say. Then again, I always have some remark in waiting.

    -=T=-
  • Perhaps the point is that there isn't boundless, unfettered free will. The "house of will" is walled by genetics and the chain of events and circumstances leading up to the moment of its attempted exercise. This includes the conditioning of the originator and the conditioning and state of all elements around - animate and inanimate - that will respond to the stimulus. The room to play may be narrow or wide but it is "stretchable" and chaotic events may land windows of opportunity for unconventional and creative outcomes - maybe even if you will.
  • CarlM
    I don't think that anyone is arguing that there is boundless, unfettered free will. I think you're exactly right about that.

    Hard as it is to believe from the number of words I've used, all I'm claiming is that Daniel's claim that Free Will requires the supernatural is equivalent to the statement that no possible future discoveries in physics can allow for Free Will. I think that this is a VERY strong statement of faith .. and one that I find surprising from a skeptic such as Daniel. (Wow .. I could have just written THAT instead of the long post I just put up ... sorry everyone.)
  • Problem here may be the use of certain touchy words and the limits of language in expressing and conveying fine-grained ideas. In our present paradigm, these connections are (physically ;-) ingrained into our subconscious
    physical = shallow insufficient coarse
    free = super cool ultimate
    opposite of free = bad chained horrific

    But the context in which these words are being used is entirely different. But perceived lack of the spiritual and freedom = sad, despondent, meaningless life? Raw nerve....Let's fight back!!
  • If we break this down I think we can agree with the following:
    If the universe is deterministic then by definition free will is impossible.
    If the universe is not deterministic then free will is possible, but we still cannot conclude solely on this one variable that we have free will.
    If there is some sort of spontaneity in the universe, even at the subatomic level, then the universe is not in fact deterministic.

    I don't think scientists have concluded for sure that there is spontaneity at the sub-atomic level, though it does appear to be the case. Even so, that still doesn't lead us to the conclusion that we have free will, it only shows that there can be a mechanism for it. The next step would be to show how our "conscience" taps in to that, and that certainly hasn't been done.

    Even so, the belief in free will does not require the belief in the supernatural given our current knowledge of the universe. As it stands "belief" in the existence or lack thereof of free will is only through some sort of faith (I'm not just talking about religious faith here.)

    On the issue of Christian faith, the verdict is still out as many protestant believe in predetermination, which jives more with your point of view. Not all Christian believe in free will.
  • "If the universe is not deterministic then free will is possible, but we still cannot conclude solely on this one variable that we have free will.
    If there is some sort of spontaneity in the universe, even at the subatomic level, then the universe is not in fact deterministic."

    This is what I think you guys are missing. Just because the universe has randomness says NOTHING about *your* personal decision input falling outside the physical world.

    Keep your subatomic randomness. Keep your non-deterministic reality. It doesn't mean you have any say in the outcome. In order for you to have a say in the outcome you must be capable of injecting a variable that exists outside of the physical world.

    Anything less and your "decisions" are simply additional inputs into a purely physical equation (which can contain randomness if you'd like), which will yield an outcome. Hence, either you have a supernatural injection point, or you have no free will.
  • Yes, I am yielding that randomness in the universe does not lead us to the conclusion that free will exists.
    I do not accept your conclusion that there needs to be a supernatural injection point to have free will. I merely need to be able to make decisions. If a rock falls to the ground it did not do so because of any decision that it made. If the universe is deterministic, then if I pull out a gun and shoot someone it was just as necessary as the falling rock. If the universe is not deterministic AND free will exists, then I had a choice. I don't believe we have the scientific data yet to say with great certainty which is true.
  • CarlM
    "I don't believe we have the scientific data yet to say with great certainty which is true."

    Precisely!

    Daniel, take note of what we are stating as our belief. There's no use arguing about anything else. We're not disagreeing with you about anything else.
  • There is very little we can say with great certainty, but I refuse to
    reject practical truth on those grounds.
  • CarlM
    I'm not sure what you mean by practical truth. It's not as though
    there's a consensus among physicists that there is no free will.

    It's an interesting subject to be sure (see for example:
    http://www.newscientist.com/article/mg19526154....
    ), but the issue simply isn't settled as you seem to believe.
  • Let me give you an example that may shed light on what Daniel means by practical truth.

    First you must understand that free will is a concept we invented. We didn't find or discover it anywhere in nature. (As opposed to say, the element iridium, which we did discover in 1803)

    Now let me invent a new concept: Fish Will.

    Free Will proposes that we have some kind of control over our actions beyond determinism.

    Fish Will, on the other hand, is the proposition that all the fish in the oceans have a kind of control over our actions beyond determinism.

    Understandably there is no reason to entertain the proposition of Fish Will, as there is no non-supernatural evidence to support it.

    Similarly, there is no reason to entertain the proposition of Free Will, as there is no non-supernatural evidence to support it.

    Or does the proposition of Free Will have something that Fish Will does not?

    The only practical position to take would be to discount both Free Will and Fish Will until either proposition can offer sound reasons.
  • Ah, thank you. Yes. This is the piece I was missing in my argument. I truly feel as if it is the other side making the assumption, not me.
  • cooperati
    "Show us the source of human decisions that exists outside of the physical world."

    None exists.

    However, your definition of free will, requiring a supernatural source, is not consistent with Wikipedia's or Stanford's definition.

    This requirement is an inference supposing that something impossible is impossible to prove.

    Furthermore, it is not an engine for validation of your individual perspective.

    -=T=-
  • I think it's entirely consistent with Wikipedia's definition. See the part about determinism.
  • CarlM
    Much better, but ...

    the Universe requires me to point out a flaw in your argument. You are assuming the conclusion. As is my style, I'll start with an analogy.

    Suppose someone claimed that "Consciousness requires the supernatural. Physics and chemistry only go so far. There's no law of physics or chemistry that brings consciousness to otherwise inanimate matter." Rather than wait for your response, I'll suggest that you would probably say something like: The fact that we don't understand the mechanism by which consciousness arises doesn't mean that consciousness is supernatural any more than the ancients' ignorance of the solar system implied that eclipses are supernatural.

    This same response works against your assertion that free will is supernatural.
  • I think you're referring to "begging the question", which absolutely does NOT mean to raise an important point (as it's more commonly used).

    --

    Begging the question (or petitio principii) is a logical fallacy in which the proposition to be proved is assumed implicitly or explicitly in the premises.

    --

    Perhaps I have done that to some degree in the opening, but I think through the course of the argument I gave solid reasons why the burden is on the believer in free will rather than the skeptic.
  • CarlM
    "Free will requires the supernatural, thus..."

    That's what I was referring to as assuming the conclusion.
  • That's what I was thinking as well. Just because we may not know how free will works, doesn't mean it requires the supernatural.
    We don't need to understand how something works in order to claim that belief that it is probably true requires the supernatural.
  • Things either happen according to physics or they don't. If they do, then nature happens and outcomes follow. There could be randomness or no randomness--it doesn't matter. Either way there won't be any input from YOU that isn't a part of the physical world.
  • CarlM
    Um ... Last I checked I AM a part of the physical world.

    Anyway, I have no conjecture for a mechanism by which my consciousness (which I assert exists) can influence the physical world, but I am not so bold as to suggest that this means that there is no such influence. Even known Physics allows for some pretty strange things.
  • Occam's Razor.
  • CarlM
    Let me be more direct. How would you respond to someone who begins an argument with: "Consciousness requires the supernatural." Assume that they are experts in physics and chemistry and know that no science explains how consciousness arises. What would your response be?

    1: The fact that science doesn't YET explain consciousness doesn't mean that it requires the supernatural.

    2: You're right. Therefore there is no such thing as consciousness.

    3: You may be right and until I see an explanation of consciousness that is consistent with all scientific theory, I believe that consciousness is an illusion.

    4: other (please elaborate)
  • I see your point, and I think it's a good one. Let me try and clarify my position by analogy.

    If I were to drop a shoe and watch it fall, I would claim that it fell due to physics. I would also claim that anyone who thought it fell for another reason outside of nature was invoking the (by definition) supernatural.

    Or imagine a domino chain that gets triggered, where everyone agrees that something pushed the first domino, and that this one falling caused all the other ones to fall, but then someone objects to the cause of the final one falling--and says it wasn't caused by the one before it.

    Again, the question is one of needing to explain why physics does not explain physical phenomenon.
  • CarlM
    ... Oh ... And I never said that physics doesn't explain either consciousness or the decision making process. I'm in the "we don't understand everything, but it doesn't follow that what we can't explain with our current understanding of science requires a supernatural explanation" camp.
  • Bahhh! Do you see what you're doing here? Are you saying that physics might someday reveal a way in which humans make decisions outside of physics?

    Revealing the decision-making process is completely separate from revealing that there's a physical process for bypassing physics.
  • CarlM
    You didn't answer my question.

    I think that it is self-evident that consciousness exists. I think that there is a STRONG link between the existence of consciousness and the existence of free will. In fact, I think that a full scientific explanation of consciousness would likely shine a light on the issue of free will, and I suspect that a scientific explanation of free will's existence or non-existence will be unsatisfying (and unconvincing) if it is not accompanied by an explanation of consciousness.

    In any case, as you no doubt deduced, whatever answer you'd give to the consciousness skeptic, I'd turn around to you the free-will skeptic.
  • Doubting consciousness and doubting free will are not the same. Consciousness isn't even defined, and when it is it's oriented around perception of reality, not the affecting of reality.

    In other words, free will is making a claim about the physical world, i.e. that the physical world stops at some point and then choice takes over. That's a physical claim.

    Consciousness is a mystery, but I've not seen many serious scientists making the claim that it's supernatural.
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