– Arik

– Arik

Daniel .. this statement (true or not) (made by YOU above) IMPLIES that atheism is a belief SYSTEM. I believe in atoms. I believe that there is NOT a flying spaghetti monster. These are BELIEFS. I might be wrong in both cases (though I think I’m pretty safe). Anyway, my point is that you can’t make a statement like the one I quoted AND assert that atheism is not a belief SYSTEM. Here’s another quote:

“Comparing the atheist’s reverence for logic and science to a steadfast belief in an invisible omnipotent being that kills with divine mercy is wholly inaccurate. They aren’t even in the same sport, let alone the same ballpark.”

One can compare two different things. And, one can even call two ENORMOUSLY DIFFERENT belief systems, belief systems. This does not mean that they are equivalent or that they both rely on the same logic to form the beliefs. Some believe in God because they believe a God to be self evident. Others do NOT believe in God because they believe that there is no evidence for a God and they do not choose to believe in things for which there is no evidence. I guess NOT believing in God would be considered agnosticism. Still others believe that there is NO God. I suppose these are the athiests. Surely their belief that there is no God is a belief.

“You don’t have beliefs in things you don’t believe in. If you insist on doing so then you’ve completely diluted the meaning of belief. Beliefs are positive, and their absence does not indicate the presence of the opposite.”

I’m not sure that Arik is wrong here, Daniel. You are right that NOT believing in something is not the same as BELIEVING the opposite of that something. But, you are mistaken in taking this to mean that it is IMPOSSIBLE to believe the opposite of something.

An example (TOOTH FAIRY SPOILER ALERT):

Some children believe in a tooth fairy. Other children (some of whom once believed in the tooth fairy) believe that there is no tooth fairy (or more precisely .. and to put it into a POSITIVE belief to fit your definition of belief .. they believe that the person putting the money under their pillow is their mother or father). It’s possible that there is an agnostic middle ground here too .. children who have no hypothesis strong enough to be called a belief about how the tooth is transformed into cash. My guess is that there are few agnostics in this case. It’s pretty much all BELIEVERS in one thing or the other.

Daniel .. this statement (true or not) (made by YOU above) IMPLIES that atheism is a belief SYSTEM. I believe in atoms. I believe that there is NOT a flying spaghetti monster. These are BELIEFS. I might be wrong in both cases (though I think I’m pretty safe). Anyway, my point is that you can’t make a statement like the one I quoted AND assert that atheism is not a belief SYSTEM. Here’s another quote:

“Comparing the atheist’s reverence for logic and science to a steadfast belief in an invisible omnipotent being that kills with divine mercy is wholly inaccurate. They aren’t even in the same sport, let alone the same ballpark.”

One can compare two different things. And, one can even call two ENORMOUSLY DIFFERENT belief systems, belief systems. This does not mean that they are equivalent or that they both rely on the same logic to form the beliefs. Some believe in God because they believe a God to be self evident. Others do NOT believe in God because they believe that there is no evidence for a God and they do not choose to believe in things for which there is no evidence. I guess NOT believing in God would be considered agnosticism. Still others believe that there is NO God. I suppose these are the athiests. Surely their belief that there is no God is a belief.

“You don’t have beliefs in things you don’t believe in. If you insist on doing so then you’ve completely diluted the meaning of belief. Beliefs are positive, and their absence does not indicate the presence of the opposite.”

I’m not sure that Arik is wrong here, Daniel. You are right that NOT believing in something is not the same as BELIEVING the opposite of that something. But, you are mistaken in taking this to mean that it is IMPOSSIBLE to believe the opposite of something.

An example (TOOTH FAIRY SPOILER ALERT):

Some children believe in a tooth fairy. Other children (some of whom once believed in the tooth fairy) believe that there is no tooth fairy (or more precisely .. and to put it into a POSITIVE belief to fit your definition of belief .. they believe that the person putting the money under their pillow is their mother or father). It’s possible that there is an agnostic middle ground here too .. children who have no hypothesis strong enough to be called a belief about how the tooth is transformed into cash. My guess is that there are few agnostics in this case. It’s pretty much all BELIEVERS in one thing or the other.

That is, I believe that a deity doesn’t exist.

Also, as I mentioned before, this also means that you’re a hobbyist, and that your hobby is not collecting stamps. By the way, you have THOUSANDS of these.

That is, I believe that a deity doesn’t exist.

Also, as I mentioned before, this also means that you’re a hobbyist, and that your hobby is not collecting stamps. By the way, you have THOUSANDS of these.

That is, I believe that a deity doesn’t exist.

I see, so do you have a belief in non-magic also? So you’re a non-magic-believer?

You don’t have beliefs in things you don’t believe in. If you insist on doing so then you’ve completely diluted the meaning of belief. Beliefs are positive, and their absence does not indicate the presence of the opposite. It’s simply the lack of that one.

Think of it this way: when you knock over an empty glass you don’t spill non-water. And you don’t then proceed to go and clean up both non-water, and non-soda, and non-juice, etc. You just do nothing because there wasn’t anything in the glass. Beliefs are the same. You either have a belief or you don’t. You don’t add up the things you DON’T believe in and call those your beliefs.

That is, I believe that a deity doesn’t exist.

I see, so do you have a belief in non-magic also? So you’re a non-magic-believer?

You don’t have beliefs in things you don’t believe in. If you insist on doing so then you’ve completely diluted the meaning of belief. Beliefs are positive, and their absence does not indicate the presence of the opposite. It’s simply the lack of that one.

Think of it this way: when you knock over an empty glass you don’t spill non-water. And you don’t then proceed to go and clean up both non-water, and non-soda, and non-juice, etc. You just do nothing because there wasn’t anything in the glass. Beliefs are the same. You either have a belief or you don’t. You don’t add up the things you DON’T believe in and call those your beliefs.

I have a strong belief in the absence of one. That is, I believe that a deity doesn’t exist. If a god will descend from the heavens and proclaim me a sinner, I will look for the candid camera.

– Arik

I have a strong belief in the absence of one. That is, I believe that a deity doesn’t exist. If a god will descend from the heavens and proclaim me a sinner, I will look for the candid camera.

– Arik

Atheism is a belief system just like deism.

No, it’s not. It’s the lack thereof. “If atheism is a belief system then not collecting stamps is a hobby.”

You don’t call it a belief system when you don’t believe in dragons or angels (or teapots revolving around Mars). If you did then all atheists would be subscribers to an infinite number of such belief systems.

Atheists trust science, but only to the degree that it can guarantee something (which is not much at all). The very concept of science is to continue looking for ways in which the currently held view is wrong, so I’d hardly call that a belief system.

Comparing the atheist’s reverence for logic and science to a steadfast belief in an invisible omnipotent being that kills with divine mercy is wholly inaccurate. They aren’t even in the same sport, let alone the same ballpark.

Atheism is a belief system just like deism.

No, it’s not. It’s the lack thereof. “If atheism is a belief system then not collecting stamps is a hobby.”

You don’t call it a belief system when you don’t believe in dragons or angels (or teapots revolving around Mars). If you did then all atheists would be subscribers to an infinite number of such belief systems.

Atheists trust science, but only to the degree that it can guarantee something (which is not much at all). The very concept of science is to continue looking for ways in which the currently held view is wrong, so I’d hardly call that a belief system.

Comparing the atheist’s reverence for logic and science to a steadfast belief in an invisible omnipotent being that kills with divine mercy is wholly inaccurate. They aren’t even in the same sport, let alone the same ballpark.

Well, I’m an Atheist and I do not need proof that there is no god. Atheism is a belief system just like deism.

– Arik

Well, I’m an Atheist and I do not need proof that there is no god. Atheism is a belief system just like deism.

– Arik