Another Jesus Quote You’ll Never Hear in Church

By Daniel Miessler on April 14th, 2009: Tagged as Atheism | Religion

Few Christians have ever heard in church, or read themselves, the story of the Cannanite woman with a sick daughter. She came to Jesus because she’d heard of his healing powers, and because her daughter was ill. And upon finally getting an audience with Jesus, she asked him to heal her. This is how Jesus responds:

It is not right to take the children’s bread, and to cast it to dogs. — Jesus Christ, Matthew 15:26

In other words, “Get lost. I’m only here to help the Jews.” If you think that’s a distortion of his meaning, it isn’t. He comes right out and says it:

I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel — Jesus Christ, Matthew 15:24

It Gets Worse

wolfsheep

At this point Jesus has already told the woman he would not heal his daughter–twice, and she decides the best way to get his attention is to lower herself to him–the way a slave does to a master. So right after being called a dog, by Jesus Christ, she says to him:

Truth, Lord: yet the dogs eat of the crumbs which fall from their masters’ table.

Or, to put it another way, “Sure, I’ll admit I’m a dog compared to Jews if you just heal my daughter.” If the lesson ended there I’d be slightly less repulsed, but no–Jesus actually likes the fact that she’s debased herself in this way to him, and he says:

O woman, great is thy faith: be it unto thee even as thou wilt. (and her daughter is healed within the hour)

But don’t take my word for any of this; look it up yourself. It’s right there in every Bible–in every hotel room and every Church–in the country.

I agree with Donald Morgan; the best arguments for atheism come not from lofty or deep philosophical arguments, but rather from the Bible itself. ::

Related

[ An Atheist Debate Reference | dmiessler.com ]
[ How I Became an Atheist | dmiessler.com ]
[ A Letter to Religious Moderates | dmiessler.com ]

  • Nick Moffitt

    My own road to atheism began with scripture as well. Every Easter, our Greek Orthodox church would read all portions of the Gospels pertaining to the crucifixion and resurrection, in both NT Greek and English (I forget which translation, but I'd guess NIV).

    Over time I noticed a few interesting points:

    1: Jesus “gave up his spirit” very early in the crucifixion process.
    2: A guard came by and broke the legs of the other two condemned to hasten the process, but left Jesus alone.
    3: Somehow the bereaved were permitted to take Jesus's body and smuggle it into an abandoned tomb.

    I kept wondering to myself, doesn't this look more like people managed to bribe the guards (gambling men, we're told) to have him taken down before he died? He spent the sabbath recovering as much as he could, and then was smuggled back to his followers to play out the Doubting Thomas scene. He then slowly dies over “forty days” (a number used just to mean “a bunch” from what I'm told).

    All my life, this scenario has just seemed really lame to me. If you were inventing a religion, you could come up with a less obvious coverup.

  • Nick Moffitt

    My own road to atheism began with scripture as well. Every Easter, our Greek Orthodox church would read all portions of the Gospels pertaining to the crucifixion and resurrection, in both NT Greek and English (I forget which translation, but I'd guess NIV).

    Over time I noticed a few interesting points:

    1: Jesus “gave up his spirit” very early in the crucifixion process.
    2: A guard came by and broke the legs of the other two condemned to hasten the process, but left Jesus alone.
    3: Somehow the bereaved were permitted to take Jesus's body and smuggle it into an abandoned tomb.

    I kept wondering to myself, doesn't this look more like people managed to bribe the guards (gambling men, we're told) to have him taken down before he died? He spent the sabbath recovering as much as he could, and then was smuggled back to his followers to play out the Doubting Thomas scene. He then slowly dies over “forty days” (a number used just to mean “a bunch” from what I'm told).

    All my life, this scenario has just seemed really lame to me. If you were inventing a religion, you could come up with a less obvious coverup.

  • Kendall Clark

    So these arguments are what we might call arguments for moral atheism; that is, if there is such an entity as described in the Christian scriptures, that entity is not worth our respect, adoration, devotion, or even acknowledgement, since that entity is, by our lights, a moral monster.

    In that sense, there is a difference between this kind of argument — which is VERY old, advanced as early as Origen (185-254, CE) who decided to interpret scripture non-literally, i.e., allegorically, precisely because it was horrid to attribute such awful things to god — and more abstract or conceptual arguments based on, say, metaphysical parsimony (i.e., we don't need anything like a god-claim to make sense of the world, etc).

    I don't know which kind is more cognitively compelling to people, but I know which one more deeply perturbs religious believers. When asked about atheism, I usually offer a two-pronged approach: first, I don't need any god-claim to make sense of the world, so it just doesn't come up for me; and, second, even if it did come up, I would only have scorn & contempt for any such entity as depicted in Christian scriptures.

    That said, I mostly just ignore those questions these days because it's all become quite tedious and boring.

  • Denis

    All text we read is biased by our hearts. Where do we stand. This text cannot be accurately read if you stand on a battlefield. When you look for a battle, you see a battle. This passage was a teaching text for the Jews and the culture of the day. Transposing snippets out of cultural context is an act of self deceit.

    I would challenge you to step outside of your prejudice and engage in an intellectually honest study of the culture and the writings. Study and culture and its writings. It will free your mind.Don't be held prisoner of chilhood experiences. If you are intelligent, put that intelligence into play. Study the Celtic Mystics. Study Islam. Study the 13th century Christians. Before condemnation becomes the cannon of your tongue, walk with your declared enemy.

    Find the ones that will walk with you. The ones that are willing to share with you the context of the writing. You have declared yourself their enemy. Why would they walk with you? It is seemingly a peculiar response in today's mindless exercise of recklessly assassinating anything that is not understood. But they will walk with you. Most find no hope or profit in enemies.

  • Anonymous

    What you consider as arguments for atheism… these verses, are actually words that do encourage and help Christians.

  • Markos

    Yet you took so much time commenting here. :-)

  • Markos

    Have you considered the possibility that Jesus was just testing her faith? Or his disciples faith and/or convictions?
    Your bias shows in the choice of words you use:
    “..no–Jesus actually likes the fact that she’s debased herself in this way to him, …”
    likes? debased?
    I would say he admired her for been so humble.
    The fact remains that he healed her daughter.
    Concerning faith it always comes down to this:
    For the believer no miracle is necessary, for the non-believer no miracle is enough.

  • bob

    “I would challenge you to step outside of your prejudice and engage in an intellectually honest study of the culture and the writings.”

    why? to waste MORE time in this preciously short life on fantasies, delusions and fairy tales? sorry, but some of us are busy living life instead of walking around with our heads in the clouds and buried in silly books written by people who understood NOTHING about the world whatsoever and made up a bunch of fairy tales to explain it.

    “if you are intelligent” STOP BELIEVING BASELESS FAIRY TALES. any truly intelligent person realizes right quick that if there hasn't been a shred of evidence to be found in over 2000 years, it might be time to move on to another theory…

  • not a skaalor

    C-C-C-C-C-C CONTEXT Junior.

    Read the fucking scripture… Verse 24 he says is NOT only called to the lost of the House of Israel, but also to others. Your a moron.

    21 Then Jesus went thence, and departed into the coasts of Tyre and Sidon.

    22 And, behold, a woman of Canaan came out of the same coasts, and cried unto him, saying, Have mercy on me, O Lord, thou son of David; my daughter is grievously vexed with a devil.

    23 But he answered her not a word. And his disciples came and besought him, saying, Send her away; for she crieth after us.

    24 But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel.

    25 Then came she and worshipped him, saying, Lord, help me.

    26 But he answered and said, It is not meet to take the children's bread, and to cast it to dogs.

    27 And she said, Truth, Lord: yet the dogs eat of the crumbs which fall from their masters' table.

    28 Then Jesus answered and said unto her, O woman, great is thy faith: be it unto thee even as thou wilt. And her daughter was made whole from that very hour.

  • http://dmiessler.com/ Daniel Miessler

    And would you say the best way for the son of God to test humility is to call her a dog and tell her he doesn't help her “kind”? Come on, man. I think this passage is exactly what it looks to be.

  • Stephen

    You're completely missing the point. Jesus (or the writer of the Gospel) was taking the opportunity to make a point to his disciples. He begins by giving a typical Jewish response: “It is not right to take the children’s bread, and to cast it to dogs.” Most Jews considered Gentiles to be about the same as dogs.

    Rather than turn away, the woman, lowering herself, replies “Truth, Lord: yet the dogs eat of the crumbs which fall from their masters’ table.”

    Jesus does like this, but it has nothing to do with his ego. He respects the woman's unwavering faith, and her humility (in one instance Jesus, the master, washes the feet of his diciples, something a servant would normally do). He says “O woman, great is thy faith: be it unto thee even as thou wilt. ” And the daughter is healed.

    So basically the author is saying to the Jews “You're used to being special, but you're really no better than everyone else,” and that what Jesus is offering is for everyone.

  • david

    you narow minded idiot, he was testing the woman.

  • http://dmiessler.com/ Daniel Miessler

    Testing what? Her ability to submit to God's will after being humiliated?

    Wait, are you arguing for or against me?

  • http://dmiessler.com/ Daniel Miessler

    Um, no. That verse means he's sent ONLY to the Jews.

    “Not sent but”, means, “Sent only for”.

    LOL; you guys are helping MY argument…

  • http://dmiessler.com/ Daniel Miessler

    Come on. Really?

    You don't teach Jews to be humble by illustrating how the son of God requires a non-Jew to admit to be a dog willing to accept scraps from her master's table as a test before allowing her a miracle that was easy for him to perform in the first place.

    You can't be serious.

  • Chris

    I have heard this in Church many times and all it really means is that the woman had faith in Jesus. Her station in life was meaningless and once her faith in Jesus was demonstrated she was able to receive the Lord's blessing. So it is actually a passage for Christians! Peace be with you…

  • THE.MAC.GOD

    All of this is a moot argument considering the Bible is a mistranslated disaster area. And, this is coming from an ex-psycho Christian. I started wavering once I found that the whole “virgin” thing was a mistranslation from Hebrew into Greek of “Young Woman” with no reference to her virginity – this is much like the Muslims' 72 virgins being a mistranslation of “72 white raisins of crystal clarity.” Plying people with pussy, or suppressing it, seems to be the religious agenda.
    Also, only 2 of the 4 books mention he was born of a 'virgin' – you think that incredibly important detail would be ubiquitous.
    But, IMHO, this verse doesn't compare to Jesus asking us to HATE our brothers, sisters, etc. Luke 14:26
    Also, his continued acceptance of slavery as commanded by God from the OT is quite despicable – the Bible was used as one of the reasons for allowing slavery in the US (“If it's good fer God, it's good fer us!). Matthew 8:5-13, Luke 12:47 I've often wondered why there are any black or women believers in any religion.
    I, of course, am only using NT scripture due to the standard apologetic response to any criticism of the Bible is to say, “That's OLD Testament and doesn't count.” The OT is rife with instructions on how to mistreat people FOR God.
    So, then stop hating gays. Jesus never said anything about it. Paul did once – but, he also never really talked about Jesus – barely knowing his story as told by the 4 books.
    Btw, only a couple verses down from the Leviticus quote that 'condemns' homosexuality is a verse about selling your daughter into slavery, but it's OK to overlook that. I always love how people selectively judge FOR God instead of letting him do his own job.
    And, since we can discount the OT, since it doesn't count anymore, also, it's old and counting… it doesn't, anymore – I missed the Rosetta Stone scripture that allows us to decipher which parts of the Bible are allegorical and which parts are FOR REALS THIS TIME.
    I guess we need to throw out the 10 Commandments as well – They aren't in the NT. Those aren't very good, either. We should amend them to replace the first four with things like: Do not stand for slavery, Do not rape, Try to lead your life in a way that doesn't negatively impact others (much like the US's set up of personal freedoms), and Thou Shalt Learn as much as possible.
    And on and on.

    Man I love a good argument.

  • Ryan

    I've heard this story many many times in church. Truth be told that in our day that language seems very harsh, but the term dog has a different meaning to us.

    This excerpt taken from Jesus the Christ by James Talmage explains:

    The woman, with importunate desire came near, possibly entering the house; she fell at the Lord's feet and worshiped Him, pleading pitifully, “Lord, help me.” To her Jesus said, “It is not meet to take the children's bread, and to cast it to dogs.” The words, harsh as they may sound to us, were understood by her in the spirit of the Lord's intent. The original term here translated “dogs” connoted, as the narrative shows, not the vagrant and despized curs elsewhere spoken of in the Bible as typical of a degraded state, or of positive badness, but literally the “little dogs” or domestic pets, such as were allowed in the house and under the table. Certainly the woman took no offense at the comparison, and found therein no objectionable epithet. Instantly she adopted the analogy, and applied it in combined argument and supplication, “Truth, Lord: yet the dogs eat of the crumbs which fall from their masters' table;” or, in the words of Mark's version: “Yes, Lord: yet the dogs under the table eat of the children's crumbs.” Her prayer was immediately granted; for Jesus said unto her, “O woman, great is thy faith: be it unto thee even as thou wilt. And her daughter was made whole from that very hour.” Mark emphasizes the special recognition of her final plea, and adds: “And when she was come to her house, she found the devil gone out, and her daughter laid upon the bed.” The woman's commendable persistency was based on the faith that overcomes apparent obstacles and endures even under discouragement. Her case reminds one of the lesson taught by the Lord on another occasion through the story of the importunate widow.

    You choose your perception, and that is every mans right. But it is also my right to speak my perception.

  • Dan

    Daniel, you amuse me.

  • http://dmiessler.com/ Daniel Miessler

    The good or bad kind?

  • Chris

    Hmmm. I've heard that verse plenty of times in church. Your thesis is obviously wrong.

  • icepyro

    “2: A guard came by and broke the legs of the other two condemned to hasten the process, but left Jesus alone.”
    - except for the whole part where they chose to stab him instead, although I am sure you can argue that point too.

    Anyway, here is a morality question for you all, but first a verse:
    22 And, behold, a woman of Canaan came out of the same coasts, and cried unto him, saying, Have mercy on me, O Lord, thou son of David; my daughter is grievously vexed with a devil.

    Now my question is this: WHY is she grievously vexed with a devil? Perhaps it is because her and/or her mother made a 'deal with the devil' or some other questionable action. One could argue the lack of knowledge of the situation, but it is pretty pressing for me to hear of someone 'vexed by a devil' and assume innocence.

    There may be even more to this on a cultural level, but even without that knowledge, there is obvious reason he doesn't want to help her just because she asked. Where would your morals stand if you could be 'fixed' by someone down the street anytime something goes wrong or you get sick if there are no repercussions?

    Jesus decides to test her faith a bit to make sure she is really sorry for whatever caused the problem. He called her on just asking for help now that she is in trouble and she sunk to literal begging like a dog to show her faith. For being that willing (again I think there is cultural implications on top of the obvious), he healed her within the hour. I can't say for sure if it would have required that much debasement, but I like to think any show of real faith would have succeeded (although probably taken longer to convince).

    Incidentally, this is why I hate government bailouts also.
    Also incidentally, this is another Jesus quote I heard in church on several occasions.
    I suddenly feel ironic for commenting like this when I don't attend church. shrug

  • Anon

    Actually, I have heard this verse taught in several sermons. But thanks for your random guess about it anyway.

  • cooperati

    I think in this you will find that you are preaching to the choir, in a perverse way. This is not some obscure verse without understanding and interpretation. This already has an established meaning, and commonly taught intent for what Jesus and the woman were doing.

    If you went to church and asked what this meant, you wouldn't find many that agree with your point of view. Oh there are always a spiteful few that haven't a shred of mercy in their hearts for one reason or another.

    But this verse is meant to teach those followers who would have seen it your way.

    Good luck!

    -=T=-

  • http://maxolasersquad.com/ Maxolasersquad

    I again challenge your assertion in the title that you will never hear this story in church. I do not see how anyone could make such claims if they are not a frequent church goer.

  • CarlM

    It does weaken the argument when the initial assertion is provably false.

  • Jose

    If the Atheist is right, we all die and nothing happens

    If the Christian is right, Atheists(having heard the Gospel and knowing Jesus is the only way to Heaven, and if you haven't heard, now you just did) will burn in hell for an eternity. While the Christian will be with God in Glory and life forever in the single greatest place anyone could ever imagine.

    hmmm….. It seems the Christian is on the win/win side of the situation

    and I don't gamble on life

    Thank you very much Atheist, ill take my chances being a Christian

  • Jose

    If the Atheist is right, we all die and nothing happens

    If the Christian is right, Atheists(having heard the Gospel and knowing Jesus is the only way to Heaven, and if you haven't heard, now you just did) will burn in hell for an eternity. While the Christian will be with God in Glory and life forever in the single greatest place anyone could ever imagine.

    hmmm….. It seems the Christian is on the win/win side of the situation

    and I don't gamble on life

    Thank you very much Atheist, ill take my chances being a Christian

  • Ahunterofdeer

    Again as an atheist you missed the point. He healed her daughter !!! and he taught a point to people about faith !! Plus you also missed the point that if the bible was written by man things like this would not be reported as some times Jesus teachings were hard for the unbelievers but not to believers.. Smile God loves you and i am trying !!!

  • BM

    I am an atheist, but you can not cut the story into pieces, you need to understand as a whole.

  • Pookie234

    You are filled with hatred and confusion. This not at all an accurate representation of what was occurring in this scripture.

    • lamalanga

      sounds just like what a catholic/politician would say.He did not come to preach to gentiles.end of story.no spinning of this will ever fly.

  • JesusSaves

    Back in that time, Gentiles were generally non believers. When the young girls mother had finally seen proof of spiritual beings (the demons), She saw Jesus as her only hope. Jesus was being harsh on her to simply test her faith in him. Once she confessed that the Lord is her “master”, he happily heeled her daughter.

    There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is no male and female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus. -Galatians 3:28

    On demons; Above all, taking the shield of faith, wherewith ye shall be able to quench all the fiery darts of the wicked. -Ephesians 16

    James 4:7 Submit yourselves therefore to God. Resist the devil, and he will flee from you.

    • lamalanga

      “test her faith”…this is the most common back door spin from a kool aid drinkers.Jesus didn’t say  “I will preach to the jews first and to the goyim later”.google fourwinds10.com and see what Talmud says about us goys.if you’re hanging on a cliff and there is a rope nearby, a jew is forbidden from taking the rope to save you.He must lynch you with it, but not save you.


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