A Wake-up Call for “Moderate Religion” Apologists

By Daniel Miessler on August 27th, 2009: Tagged as Atheism | Religion
  • CarlM
    "However, once out of the promised land (or non-jew), what do these mean, if you believe the bible is true? That its okay to disobey God's orders once you leave the borders?"

    Not at all. The orders aren't given EXCEPT to MOSES and those who were with him. It is NOT stated (at least not there) that these are orders to be followed forever. I see no contradiction in a religious person believing that the passage is an accurate representation of God's message to MOSES (that is: it being "true") and their believing that the message was not intended for THEM (the current-day religious person that is).

    "Is a gay in the promised land is an abomination, and worldly gay is not one? That itself seems quite absurd.
    It also seems quite absurd to follow this Biblegod and think that you do not have to follow his orders simply because you descended from a different tribe."

    I am not the right person to be arguing this, but I'll point out what I think is a flaw in your logic. Let me begin with a (human) example to illustrate my point. It was once illegal in many states for blacks and whites to intermarry (because people found it to be an abomination). Officers were authorized by those states to arrest those who were in violation of those laws. Officers in other places were not authorized to do so. Officers in those original states are NO LONGER authorized to do so. Laws change. Even when an act is consistently deemed to be illegal, punishments change. NONE of this changes the TRUTH that officers were authorized by those states to arrest those who were in violation of those laws. By analogy, your statement about the "truth" of the Bible is irrelevant.

    You might argue that MY point is irrelevant because I'm talking about the laws of man which by their very nature are fleeting while YOUR examples deal with the laws of God which by their very nature are eternal. But, I think that it's hard to read the Bible and NOT conclude that God changed his mind MANY times. He placed Adam and Eve in the Garden of Eden and then got upset with them and evicted them. He lost his temper and flooded the Earth to destroy mankind and then apologized and promised that it wouldn't happen again and used the rainbow as a symbol of this promise.

    "Jesus was all for keeping all of the laws, as he said the believers must uphold every single one. Of course thats ambiguous, because he goes against some of the laws himself, and scoffs at others."

    Upholding the laws and punishing those who do not uphold them are two entirely different things. Perhaps this is what Maxo was talking about. (Maxo, help me out here.)

    "Which is just utterly, remarkably curious*, since Jesus was a jew and was also supposed to be God. At times in the NT it is as if he is shrugging off his own laws, as if god changed his mind when he sent himself to die** for the jews.

    * By curious, I mean there are obvious plot holes in the story being told, and the whole jesus ordeal reeks of not being very well thought-out...

    ** ...which brings me to remark on the related plot hole, that the death of Jesus is actually a rather meaningless one, but this is getting too far off topic"

    I'm not sure what the plot holes are that you're talking about. (Since people tend to put words in my mouth, I will explicitly say that I make no assertions that there are NOT plot holes.) Even as a non-religious person who doesn't assert with any certainty that Jesus even existed, I can't imagine how you can possibly conclude that the death of Jesus is a meaningless one (unless you're talking only from your perspective). It seems to me to be undeniable that people find extraordinary significance in it. To them, it is far from meaningless. It is a cornerstone of Christianity. Since the premise of this entire blog piece was that Christians and other religious people sometimes allow their faith to interfere with their thinking in areas in which faith ought not apply, it seems to me that the death of Jesus (as interpreted by Christians) has significance even to YOU and Daniel.
  • "But, I think that it's hard to read the Bible and NOT conclude that God changed his mind MANY times."


    I agree, and additionally I contend that this is a major plot hole.

    God is all-knowing; the Bible says that he is "Perfect in Knowledge" and views everything there is under the heavens (All of that is in Job, I think, probably elsewhere). This all-seeing God has even declared the end from the beginning (thats Isiah 46:9-10).

    However if this is the case, why does God (seemingly) change his mind? In fact, why does god screw up at all? His first humans were able to go behind his back and eat some fruit, so he had to guard some other fruit from them with a sword-wielding angel. (Genesis Ch 3, often titled "The Fall of Man." My favorite chapter in the Bible!) And God got angry when he found out, too. Almost all displays of emotion are quizzical, since if he was omnipotent he should have known precisely what was going to happen, eons before it did! He could have devised a world where Jesus was unnecessary to kill, but he didn't! Poor planning, God.

    Really its not poor planning, though. Its just poor writing and poor editing. But I'm not about to blame a handful of ancient sheep herders for their plot-making skills.


    "Upholding the laws and punishing those who do not uphold them are two entirely different things. Perhaps this is what Maxo was talking about."


    Even if one of God's laws was to punish people for him?


    Let me clarify on what I mean by Jesus having a meaningless death.

    First let me offer an example of the language I mean that I hope you will agree with:
    Let us say that the president of a company was engaged in a scandal which made the public furious. They demanded that he resign. After speaking with the Board of Directors, the president resigned and the public was happy. Then, three days later, the Board of Directors hired the ex-president back, as president again! The public was once again furious.

    This is an example of a meaningless resignation: It happened, but it lacked any significance (which is the definition of 'meaningless' according to Webster's dictionary), since the Board just re-hired him after three days.


    Now on to Jesus. Let us consider:

    1. Jesus was the son of the Biblegod
    2. Jesus was also a man
    3. Because he was God, he was perfect and free of sin, as opposed to everyone else, who has been cursed with orginal sin
    4. Jesus allowed himself to be crucified, so he could suffer all the sins of humanity
    5. Jesus needed to die to nullify #4

    That Jesus could be punished for our sins, allowing us to avoid being punished (thanks to Jesus we can go to heaven), is of dubious moral standing. No modern moral system allows someone else to be punished in place of another. It's an insult to modern justice and morality.

    That God demanded human sacrifice at all is also against modern justice and morality.

    But wait: was the death of Jesus even a sacrifice? Look at the story of the company president above again. In precisely the same way, the death of Jesus is meaningless. The significance of giving up your life is rather diminished when you are in fact not giving it up, but coming back to life three days later.

    So Jesus didn't have a meaningful death: He had a bad weekend, faced death knowing he would return(!), came back to life, and then went into Eternal Paradise forevermore afterwards. That's not a sacrifice, that's a pretty sweet deal!

    So what did he really give up? Whats the point of giving up your life if you don't stay dead? Ultimately, nothing was sacrificed.

    At this point we have to wonder what the rationale is for the whole existence of Jesus. Did God really need to manifest himself so he could sacrifice himself, in order to satisfy himself so he could then forgive a problem that he created himself?

    Why didn't omnipotent Biblegod just forgive mankind, instead of demanding the - meaningless as I have shown - human sacrifice of an innocent god-child? It is clear that by devising this plan, God was ready to forgive us anyway.

    So you see? The whole Jesus plot line is just remarkably poor writing. Jesus' sacrificial death wasn't really a sacrifice, and it wasn't really death. The only thing meaningful that came out of the story was the Biblegod's apparent willingness to go against what we all consider to be morally right.

    You say the death of jesus has significance to me. It does, in a way: I am writing my thesis on how morality is NOT derived from religion, and how in fact the Abrahamic religions largely present a moral black hole, though we as a culture generally do not try to observe them very hard and point out this fact. I intend to do just that.
  • CarlM
    I forgot one of the things I meant to reply to.

    You wrote: "Even if one of God's laws was to punish people for him?"

    As I already pointed out, the literal text of the Bible (indeed the very Chapter that YOU directed me to) shows that this law was directed at a specific group of people and was not necessarily intended as a commandment for all people for all eternity. Perhaps you can point out where the Bible says that Jesus asks people to carry out Gods punishments (or to continue to carry them out).
  • CarlM
    I'm going to leave this to Biblical scholars to debate, but I will say a few things.

    First, you had a typo and wrote omnipotent when you meant to write omniscient.

    Second, though I agree that your hypothetical resignation of the corporate president was indeed meaningless, I don't agree that the analogy with the story of Jesus is a good one. His bodily death was symbolic (though in His human form He endured suffering as humans do). When He returned a few days later, it wasn't the same as a CEO returning after a resignation. He didn't simply resume his former life as if nothing has happened.

    Third, you say that "No modern moral system allows someone else to be punished in place of another. It's an insult to modern justice and morality." I disagree. In some (most? all?) US states, a parent is legally (morally?) responsible for certain crimes committed by their children. I think that it's rather easy to draw a parallel between this sort of judicial structure in which justice is met by imposing a punishment on the parents rather than the children and the Biblical story we're talking about.

    Fourth, you said: "That God demanded human sacrifice at all is also against modern justice and morality." My terse answer is: not in the US (think death penalty).

    Fifth: "So Jesus didn't have a meaningful death: He had a bad weekend, faced death knowing he would return(!), came back to life, and then went into Eternal Paradise forevermore afterwards. That's not a sacrifice, that's a pretty sweet deal! So what did he really give up? Whats the point of giving up your life if you don't stay dead? Ultimately, nothing was sacrificed." Well, he endured the same agonies that people suffer when brutalized. That probably ought to count for SOMETHING. You might point out that these sufferings were fleeting and he KNEW that they were fleeting, so how hard could they really be to endure? Well, that seems to me to be the POINT (or one of the points) of that episode. Though we may endure suffering on Earth, it is fleeting and a better "life" awaits us after we die. (I'll remind you that I am not a religious person, but if you are going to attack the plot of Bible stories, then at least read them with some understanding of a religious perspective.) Further, the MEANING in Jesus' death doesn't come from the finality of the death (as the MEANING in the firing of a CEO might come from the finality of the gesture). It seems to me that the MEANING comes from the fact that the death WASN'T final. We're using "meaning" as meaning something closer to "impact". To say that the CEO's firing was meaningless is to say that it had no real impact on the CEO or on the company. To similarly assert that Jesus' death had no real impact on Him or his followers is (in my mind) absurd. When I asserted that his death had meaning even for you and Daniel, I meant that because his death (or, if you prefer, the story of his death) impacted Christians and these Christians impacted you, then (indirectly) Jesus' death impacts (has significance for) you.

    ... From here, I'll leave this to those with more scholarly expertise in the Bible.
  • CarlM
    For some reason it's not letting me edit that (perhaps because I already replied to it). Anyway, I mean to say "to destroy MOST OF mankind". That was a typo. I may not be a Biblical scholar, but I know SOME stuff that is in there.
  • CarlM
    So much for being terse. :)
  • CarlM
    By the way, you COULD have stated one of your pieces of data equally truthfully but less alarmingly as:

    Disturbing
    42% of Americans outright reject evolution
    47% of Americans believe in evolution

    ... yes, I believe that this is STILL (very) disturbing.
    ... yes, I'd prefer that people understood the power of natural selection after random mutations. (I'd also prefer that they didn't HEAR this as "random selection" which is incredibly far from what it is.)
  • EVOLUTION:
    Creationist Beliefs Persist in Europe
    Andrew Curry

    http://www.sciencemag.org/cgi/content/summary/3...

    Looks like Europe is only a little better if you assertions about the dangers are correct. But I think they are a little hyperbolic.
  • I wasn't able to pull the paper; it seemed to require a purchase. Did you get it?
  • I don't try to separate my religious convictions from my personal or political discourse. I can believe that something is immoral, and yet I don't have the moral right to legally impose those morals on others. That is both a "moderate position" and consistent with the bible.
    What is not at stake here is not if religious is healthy, but is it factual. If Jesus really is the son of God in the flesh and died to save us from our sins against God, then it should be taught, even if those teachings are dangerous.
    Doctors face a similar dilemma to the one you propose. In certain cases letting a patient know the full extent of their health problems can lead to lower survival rates. However a doctor has a moral obligation to tell their patients the truth about their condition, despite the possible harm.
    So what is important is not the harm of religion, but the fact or fiction or it's teachings.
  • I would agree with you here, and I think that if one "knew" that someone was going to go to hell for sinning against a God that existed, for any number of offenses, than it would be the right thing to do to oppose public policy decisions that went against God's word.

    And this is consistent with how many on the religious right are approaching public policy--they're opposing abortion and stem cell research and such because they "know" that it's the right thing to do.

    Surely you see the problem here. They have no evidence. Zero. None. Their claims are empty. And as much as I respect you as a person and as a friend, I can tell you that you have no stronger a claim to knowledge of God than they do.

    So, you're saying that you don't have the moral right to legally impose morals on others, but you also said that the religious teachings "should be taught". There is little difference in these two. When you teach children that you must do what you think God wants them to do then you ARE affecting how that child will respond to the world. Imposing those beliefs will have repercussions in how they interact with the secular world--just like we're seeing with stem cell research, abortion, gay marriage, etc.

    Religious people don't approach these matters in a secular fashion, through rational discourse that's divorced from religious belief. And that's the whole point. Inevitably this DOES enter the world of law, as we can see with opposition to gay marriage, which is a legal right, or the opposition to Roe vs. Wade, or stem cell research.

    Doing certain types of stem cell research with Federal money under Bush wasn't "discouraged"; it was outright illegal. Why? Religion.

    So yes, I agree that thoughtful and moderate people like yourself try and avoid overtly oppressing those around them with their beliefs, I would say that religious beliefs inevitably creep into the public discourse on topics that are covered within their religious domain.

    And again, this is an issue, because it prevents TRUE discussion from taking place that's based on logic and compassion. Bottom line: if it impedes a society's ability to advance through open and logical discussion, it's a problem.
  • CarlM
    ** Doing certain types of stem cell research with Federal money under Bush wasn't "discouraged"; it was outright illegal.

    That's not true. Federal money wasn't allowed to be spent on it, but it wasn't illegal.
  • I don't mean to mince words, but what Daniel said is both correct and consistent with what you just said.

    Doing certain types of stem cell research with Federal money under Bush was illegal.

    Doing stem cell research was legal, but doing it with Federal money was not.
  • CarlM
    It wasn't illegal to do the research. Period. No Federal funding could be awarded for such projects. So, if someone diverted such funding into such a project, it is true that it would be illegal .. but it would be illegal to divert federal funding from ANY research project into one that wasn't covered in the terms of the original grant. The illegality doesn't have anything directly to do with the fact that it was stem cell research.

    You're right, I didn't read carefully what Daniel wrote (even the bit I copied and pasted), but it's a REAL stretch of vocabulary to use the term "illegal" in this context.
  • Here's where I disagree with you; "than it would be the right thing to do to oppose public policy decisions that went against God's word." I disagree. There is a difference between telling someone they should or shouldn't do this and that, and telling someone you will use the force of law to either physically restrain them from doing it, or punish them for their actions. I believe it is immoral to use the force of law to impose your believes and values on someone else.
    When we do right God isn't pleased with us unless we did right for God. If we do right because we have no other option then it is really just a neutral action. When you pay taxes so the IRS doesn't come after you, there is no praise for you when that money is spent for good.
    If I drive my car to work and arrive safely I don't praise my car for being a good driver. If my car drives me to work safely, then I would praise it to others for doing a good job.
    Religious people who use the force of law to enforce what they see as God's will are not in fact acting in good faith for God. Without the freedom of people to do wrong, there is no glory in the good things that they do.
  • I am extremely confused by the points you have raised here, and while they are many, let me address this one first:

    "Religious people who use the force of law to enforce what they see as God's will are not in fact acting in good faith for God. Without the freedom of people to do wrong, there is no glory in the good things that they do."

    Lets suppose for a minute that you think the Bible is true.

    Supposing such means that God has given you a direct order to kill gays, among other people.

    If you believed the Bible was true, wouldn't it be acting in good faith if you followed God's direct, unambiguous will, instead of the cultural laws that man created?

    If you disagree and think that our cultural laws are more important than God's word, why is that?

    You say that when we do right God isn't pleased with us unless we did right for God. Killing gays would seem that the right thing to do, you know, for God, right?
  • Maxo
    "Supposing such means that God has given you a direct order to kill gays, among other people."
    I don't believe it. Jesus has given a direct order of pacifism.

    "If you believed the Bible was true, wouldn't it be acting in good faith if you followed God's direct, unambiguous will, instead of the cultural laws that man created?"
    Absolutely. It is a Christian's duty to follow God's law, not man's.

    "If you disagree and think that our cultural laws are more important than God's word, why is that?"
    I don't. See above.

    "You say that when we do right God isn't pleased with us unless we did right for God. Killing gays would seem that the right thing to do, you know, for God, right?"
    If killing homosexuals was consistent with Jesus' teaching then sure, but it isn't.
  • Please see the above post.

    I imagine the very specific 'teaching' you are referring to is the 'turn the other cheek' one, in which he argues against revenge.

    You're not taking revenge against gays, you're just killing them. Like God commanded that you do.
  • CarlM
    I'm not a Biblical expert, but there seems to be little in the Bible that is unambiguous. In any case, even if we accept that the Bible unambiguously condemns homosexuals, it isn't clear to me that the line "If a man lies with a male as with a women, both of them shall be put to death for their abominable deed; they have forfeited their lives" says that they shall be put to death by MEN. I'm sure that you Biblical scholars can find a passage (there's at least one) where it says that it is NOT up to men to impose God's judgement on other men. I seem to remember something that fairly explicitly (and fairly unambiguously) implies that imposing God's punishment is GOD'S job, and not that of man. I also seem to remember something that fairly explicitly (and fairly unambiguously) implies that ALL sins can be forgiven if some condition or another is fulfilled (I'll let you scholars track this down).

    It may be that THIS is the sort of thing that Maxo was talking about, Simon, rather than "turn the other cheek" (but I won't speak for Maxo).
  • The chapter in question very specifically states that the people of the land (not God) are to put the offenders to death with stones. It also repeats a few times that the people must carry out all of God's laws.

    In Lev 20:13 it states: If a man lies with a male as he lies with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination. They shall surely be put to death. Their blood shall be upon them.

    The chapter goes on to describe some other offenses punishable by death, and the offense of seeing your sister naked (which are punishable by excommunication)

    Lev 20:22 says ‘You shall therefore keep all My statutes and all My judgments, and perform them

    Which is pretty unambiguous as to who is supposed to do the stoning, and if we are supposed to keep all of the laws, or just some.

    For context, you can read all of Lev 20 here.
  • CarlM
    Thanks for the link to Lev 20. I took your advice and read it (in a couple of versions). Let me quote Lev 20:22 completely:

    "You shall therefore keep all My statutes and all My judgments, and perform them, that the land where I am bringing you to dwell may not vomit you out."

    It does seem to be pretty unambiguous as to who is to do the stoning. And, you're right, it seems clear that the message was NOT that God would impose the punishment but that MOSES and his people were to do so. SPECIFICALLY, THESE PEOPLE were to do so in order "that the land where I am bringing you to dwell may not vomit you out." It does not say that this was an order to be carried out by all Jews for all eternity (at the very least, it seems not to apply to anyone who doesn't dwell [or doesn't intend to dwell] in the promised land). You may have a different reading, but I think that my reading follows the text rather carefully. (I am honestly astonished that this is what the text says, since it seems so clear to me that the interpretation I've suggested fits the text PRECISELY without the need to make any special assumptions.)

    In any case, as I said before, there seems to me to be little in the Bible that is unambiguous. Further, Matthew 7:1+ says "Judge not, that ye be not judged." This is one of the New Testament quotes that I was talking about, but (again) I am NOT a biblical scholar (nor am I a follower of biblical teachings). I just find it ironic when nonbelievers act as if the Bible is unambiguous when the fact that so many religious people have different interpretations makes it quite clear that it is not. Indeed, many religious people -including the most devout- find the Bible to be filled with ambiguities, and these people struggle to interpret many of its passages.
  • You raise a good point that God is very well talking to the Jews in the promised land.

    However, once out of the promised land (or non-jew), what do these mean, if you believe the bible is true? That its okay to disobey God's orders once you leave the borders?

    Is a gay in the promised land is an abomination, and worldly gay is not one? That itself seems quite absurd.

    It also seems quite absurd to follow this Biblegod and think that you do not have to follow his orders simply because you descended from a different tribe.

    Jesus was all for keeping all of the laws, as he said the believers must uphold every single one. Of course thats ambiguous, because he goes against some of the laws himself, and scoffs at others.

    Which is just utterly, remarkably curious*, since Jesus was a jew and was also supposed to be God. At times in the NT it is as if he is shrugging off his own laws, as if god changed his mind when he sent himself to die** for the jews.

    * By curious, I mean there are obvious plot holes in the story being told, and the whole jesus ordeal reeks of not being very well thought-out...

    ** ...which brings me to remark on the related plot hole, that the death of Jesus is actually a rather meaningless one, but this is getting too far off topic
  • CarlM
    See my reply at the top level (the limited width here this far into a thread drives me nuts). Daniel, while I'm griping, if there is a way for you to set links to automatically open in a new window, I'd greatly appreciate you setting that option. I like to follow links that people provide without (1) leaving the original context and (2) specifically telling my browser to open the link in a new window. In the context of a blog it seems more natural to default to opening links in a new window. (One guys gripe.)
  • So, I don't see a setting for that. I think the best option might be to right click links and open them in a new tab. In the meantime I'll be looking for a solution.
  • CarlM
    This is a test. I think that THIS LINK will open in a new window. If it works, you'll find an argument written by someone who disagrees with me.

    I know about Right-Click, but with an Apple mouse, that really means Control-Click. I guess my gripe is partly with Apple for making me press a key while I click to get the result I think would make more sense. (My great thanks to Gmail for spoiling me by doing it the way I think makes more sense.)
  • CarlM
    Actually, that article Doesn't really disagree with me. He includes a list of exceptional circumstances in which it is OK to enforce links to open in a new window. One of those is when "the link may interrupt an ongoing process." Recently, the blog seems to remember what I've entered into a reply if I click a link when I'm in the middle of a reply, but it used to just lose everything I'd typed. (This was irritating.) Better to just open the link in a new window so as not to interrupt anything that might have been entered into the form. (Anyway, I gather that the option is there, so I'll live with it.)
  • Which reply at the top level? I don't see any new posts...

    If it helps, pressing the middle mouse (Scroll wheel) on links will open them in a new tab/window.
  • CarlM
    (1) It's there now. I had to write it .. and there was much to say.
    (2) I have an Apple, so the method for forcing a link to open in a new window is different. I know what it is, but it seems to me that in a blog, it should be the default to open links in a new window (you want the person to stay in the blog so they can reply or read more or whatever). Gmail does this .. links in emails open in NEW windows so your position in gmail is unaffected. I just think that the same rationale applies to blogs. It's a user interface nicety.
  • CarlM
    PS See what I mean about these narrow paragraphs? It gets absurd after a while.
  • Maxo
    Please explain to me, given the full context of Judaism and the transition to the new covenant Jesus brought how killing homosexuals is God's will.
    I am not arguing that Christians should follow secular teachings of morality. I am arguing that Christians shouldn't demand that secular (or people of other faiths) to follow their teachings of morality.
  • I didn't say anything about Jesus. I was talking about God.

    Unless you mean how Jesus is god, in which case I should point out that he is unchanging. [Heb 13:8] (There are several lines like this one throughout the bible, I can provide more if you want)

    Additionally, Jesus explicitly said* he didn't want to abolish the law of prophets before him [Matt 5:17]

    Now I don't need to bring up all the quotes from the Old Testament now where the Lord explicitly says to kill various groups of people, do I? Or, when God ordered it, Joshua/David/etc did kill all the men, did rape all the women, and God saw it was good, do I?

    I will assume you have read the bible cover to cover, and are familiar with its contents.


    And if you're still really into this Jesus part, as you seem to think that the newer books of the bible replace the old, which is a curious take in its own right, then we need to only look at Revelations.

    Lets look at Revelation 19, the chapter about Jesus on the white horse, shall we?

    11 Now I saw heaven opened, and behold, a white horse. And He who sat on him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness He judges and makes war. 12 His eyes were like a flame of fire, and on His head were many crowns. He had[e] a name written that no one knew except Himself. 13 He was clothed with a robe dipped in blood, and His name is called The Word of God. 14 And the armies in heaven, clothed in fine linen, white and clean,[f] followed Him on white horses. 15 Now out of His mouth goes a sharp[g] sword, that with it He should strike the nations. And He Himself will rule them with a rod of iron. He Himself treads the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God. 16 And He has on His robe and on His thigh a name written:

    17 Then I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the birds that fly in the midst of heaven, “Come and gather together for the supper of the great God,[h] 18 that you may eat the flesh of kings, the flesh of captains, the flesh of mighty men, the flesh of horses and of those who sit on them, and the flesh of all people, free[i] and slave, both small and great.”
    19 And I saw the beast, the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against Him who sat on the horse and against His army. 20 Then the beast was captured, and with him the false prophet who worked signs in his presence, by which he deceived those who received the mark of the beast and those who worshiped his image. These two were cast alive into the lake of fire burning with brimstone. 21 And the rest were killed with the sword which proceeded from the mouth of Him who sat on the horse. And all the birds were filled with their flesh.


    So why, precisely, do you think robes-dipped-in-blood Jesus is a pacifist? He's only the price of peace after he and his armies kill everyone that disagrees with him, flying mouth-swords and all.

    (If you want a list of everyone that Jesus damns, I can give you that, too)



    * Its worth mentioning that Jesus didn't say any of this. Someone years after his death wrote some things down and then several other people plagarized that text, altering the stories to suit their tastes. But since that doesn't bother the majority of christianity I'll assume its fine with you.
  • So, I'm no expert in the new covenant, but please show me where Jesus
    reverses the following:

    "If a man lies with a male as with a women, both of them shall be
    put to death for their abominable deed; they have forfeited their
    lives."
  • CarlM
    Your entire argument hangs on what I consider to be a rather thin nail. You assert that "This type of irrational belief is clearly not something that can be partitioned off from the shared and secular world. And because of this, the practice of teaching people to put religious beliefs before evidence (the very definition of faith) is inherently dangerous." If the first of those sentences is not true (as I claim to be the case), then your argument falls apart.
  • Ok, let's take the first sentence: "This type of irrational belief is clearly not something that can be partitioned off from the shared and secular world."

    I am claiming that this is clear because of the poll data presented. Only 14% of people said they rejected evolution due to a lack of evidence, while over 50% rejected it because of religious beliefs. That's a significant difference.

    So, when you look at how public discourse is frame on topics such as gay marriage, abortion, and stem cell research (to name a few) you see religion has a continual presence in the debate for precisely this reason.

    This too has been shown by poll data, and my post above, and the articles I refer to, merely describe the phenomenon that causes this to happen--namely the placing of faith-based feelings on a pedestal above logical, secular, objective discussion of these matters.

    Finally, I would submit that if you accept that, then the second sentence does follow, i.e. if people are less logical because of religion, and less logic in public discourse harms society, then religion harms society. That's my a-to-c knight's move.
  • CarlM
    Here's the problem. If you had said something like: "Too often, people allow their religious mode of thought to bleed over into realms in which faith-based thinking simply does not apply," then I'd be in complete agreement. But, that's not what you said. You said that this is "clearly NOT something that CAN be partitioned off ...", and THAT sentence simply isn't true. Lots of religious people are able to look at the world in what you and I would agree is an appropriately evidence-based way. Therefore, your first sentence is false. One of the easiest types of statement to prove wrong is a universal statement that doesn't universally hold. This is particularly true when there are MANY exceptions.

    I'm fighting to keep this short, so I'll get to the point. If your first sentence is NOT an absolute, then your second sentence doesn't work. In fact, I'd argue that your second sentence is WAY off the mark. If you had said something like "I worry that people are being taught to use faith-based thinking in realms where it doesn't apply" then I'd be with you. But, I'd need to see some evidence about the extent to which this is happening. To be fair, you're not asserting that it is happening. You're asserting that they are being taught that faith is good (perhaps entirely in the context of their religious beliefs) and that it is impossible (a word you would not have used but that is equivalent to what you wrote) to partition this sort of belief from the shared and secular world. Since it's not impossible, it doesn't follow that the teaching of faith (in the context of religion) is a bad thing. At least, it doesn't follow from any arguments I've seen so far.

    So, Daniel, my main argument with you here is that you made a statement that was demonstrably false. Since you hung the rest of your point on that false statement, your argument falls flat.
  • So if Daniel rewrote it like the following, would you be in agreement with him?

    Dan's words, modified by myself:
    Teaching people to rely on religious upbringing rather than evidence has direct, negative, and lasting repercussions in our society (stem cell research, abortion, health care, etc.). This type of irrational belief is clearly not something that gets partitioned off from the shared and secular world. And because of this, the practice of teaching people to put religious beliefs before evidence (the very definition of faith) is often dangerous.
  • CarlM
    (1) I'm not convinced that people are being taught to rely on faith (rather than evidence) in areas of science. I'm not saying that they don't DO so, I just am not convinced that this is an integral part of religious teaching. (I'd need to be shown some evidence to be convinced otherwise.)

    (2) Your second sentence is almost as weak as Daniel's first sentence. When you say "clearly not" it makes a statement that is considerably stronger than I believe is warranted. There are MANY people for whom the partitioning is strong and clear. So to say that it doesn't happen is not true. You guys would get trounced in any structured debate because you insist on making absolute statements (perhaps because you think that the structure of your argument requires it .. or that your argument would be weaker without them).

    (3) Your last sentence falls short too for the same reasons as Dan's second sentence.

    -------

    What's wrong with the sentences I offered? I'll copy them below (the first two sentences) and will add a bit more.

    --------

    "Too often, people allow their religious mode of thought to bleed over into realms in which faith-based thinking simply does not apply. I worry that people are being taught to use faith-based thinking in realms where it doesn't apply." When people ignore evidence and use only faith to support their position in a public policy debate, it has the effect of diminishing the impact of rational discussion on the subject.

    --------

    The thing is ... not all who use faith as a part of their reason to have a particular position on an issue go on to deny evidence. Many of them use honest evidence to support their position and engage in real intellectual debate on issues. It is NOT religious belief that is the problem. It is the use of religious belief as an excuse to avoid scientific inquiry and rational thought that is a problem. I do not accept the claim that religious belief in and of itself leads to the avoidance of scientific inquiry and rational thought. I know many counterexamples to such a claim.
  • I must agree with you that there are many times where religious belief did not lead to the avoidance of scientific inquiry. Newton and Pascal, for instance, were rather religious men, yet made numerous advances to science and the discipline of logic.

    The problem that me and Daniel have is that too often religious thinking does poison debate. Religious belief does not lead to the avoidance of scientific inquiry all the time, as you say, and oh how we wish that religious compartmentalized thinking were true all the time, but sadly it tends to creep into other areas.

    When the majority of America takes faith-based reasoning over the science of biology, our concern is understandable, no?
  • CarlM
    I share the concern. (I thought that was clear from what I've written.) Indeed, I agree with what you've written here: "TOO OFTEN religious thinking does poison debate." The argument I had with Daniel (and with your earlier attempt to restate what Daniel said) is that he (and you) used an absolute statement when one wasn't warranted. That was the extent of my gripe. (I'm trying to get Daniel to be more careful in how he constructs arguments. He's improving enormously, but still lets his conclusions guide his arguments sometimes.)
  • CarlM
    As much as I want to be more terse in what I write here, I feel compelled to note that I have a problem with the second sentence too. I'll leave it (for now) as an exercise to the reader to figure out what that is.
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